Introducing Dear DPM – Anonymous Advice For Digital Project Managers (with Robyn Reynolds)

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Ben Aston: Thanks for tuning in, I’m Ben Aston, and this is the Digital Project Manager Podcast. Today, I am joined by, my new best friend, Robyn Reynolds. And today, we’re gonna be talking about our awesome new DPM project, Dear DPM.

Robyn Reynolds: Hi guys. I’m super excited to be here. Thanks Ben for having me. I love you. New best friends.

Ben Aston: (laughs) Our friendship has grown. But we’ll talk about that in a minute. But Robyn, let’s first just talk about you. So for those, you’ve actually not written an article on a digital project manager before. We’re about to launch the, your first post. But you’ve been working on this new project. And we’ll talk about that in a minute. But, tell us a little bit about yourself. You are in the Pacific Northwest, are you not?

Robyn Reynolds: I am. I live in Portland, Oregon. But, to be more exact, I live just outside of the city by the Mount Hood National Forest. So basically, I live in like, a Pacific Northwest cliché environment. So, right outside my window are these giant cedars, and there’s a raging glacial stream. And it’s quite fun, I quite like it.

Ben Aston: Is it raining right now?

Robyn Reynolds: It is sunny, blue skies.

Ben Aston: Crazy. It is for me as well. But normally, it is raining to be honest.

Robyn Reynolds: I don’t know what to do with the sun right now. It’s weird.

Ben Aston: I went out in the sun earlier today, and it actually felt warm. Which is a refreshing change for this time of year. So tell us a bit about it, it sounds like you’re in the middle of nowhere. Being a remote project manager.

Robyn Reynolds: I am. Yup, absolutely. So right now I am a senior project manager, at a company called Dream 10. We are a small design studio and we focus on a lot of product design and UX, so super fun.

Ben Aston: Cool. How did you start working with them? I’m always interested, especially with remote Pms, how they actually get the job when they’re remote? How does that work?

Robyn Reynolds: Yeah, well let’s start at the beginning. So, right, you know you get out of college. I always by the end of college know I wanted to go into advertising. And unfortunately, my husband, which was my boyfriend at the time, got a great job in Alaska where I’m from. And, very nice. So, we had to move back up there. And, it was challenging to move back to my hometown. But I started working in a traditional agency. And, at the time, we were working with a vendor called 14-4. And, on a website project. And the girl was named Amanda, and she was a producer. And I wanted to do what she was doing.

Ben Aston: You wanted to be her.

Robyn Reynolds: I was infatuated. And, so basically, I hightailed it back out of Alaska, down to Portland where I had gone to school, and worked at a couple of different shops there. So, I actually though, for my current position, have to credit digitalprojectmanager.com for getting me my job. Because this is actually where I saw the job posting. And I was like, yes, queen, I’m applying for this. Sounds great. And here we are today.

Ben Aston: Whoa. You know, that is the first time, that is the first success story I’ve heard. With the job section.

Robyn Reynolds: Yeah, and I really think that the future of a lot of our work is moving towards remote. And, for me, I wanted a challenge of how to craft remote teams and build strength and kind of figure out how to run an organization better remotely.

Ben Aston: So, how big is Dream 10 then?

Robyn Reynolds: We’re still pretty small. We’re about four people, and then we’ll expand, depending upon project needs. So, what’s fun is I work with a lot of international freelancers as well. So, I can be on super early in the morning or checking in late at night, depending on different time zones.

Ben Aston: And in terms of the clients that you’ve got though, who … Is someone in an office somewhere, pretending that they running a big agency?

Robyn Reynolds: Well, we’re very open that we’re remote. And what’s different is that I no longer travel for work. When I was at Struck previously, I was always traveling to Salt Lake or L.A., visiting with clients. But now, we do a lot of meetings over web conference, which is Zoom Room. And I’ve found that we’re really quick at turning around project timelines. And, we’re really great at presenting and encouraging our clients to participate through Zoom Room, which I’m obsessed with.

Ben Aston: Cool, so, every, the way that you typically interact with your clients is everyone’s remote?

Robyn Reynolds: Yeah.

Ben Aston: So no one’s going to in-person client meetings?

Robyn Reynolds: No. Not yet. And we really own that. And I think it hasn’t been a challenge. You know, when you have your webcam on, you’re pretty vulnerable. And visible to everybody, so. And even on that note, I mean, I’m showing my house, right? Like you can see what’s behind me, you can see sometimes my kid. And so I think it’s just, super personable still.

Ben Aston: Yeah, awesome. Cool. And so, what keeps you busy outside of work? There’s one thing that I do want to ask you about. Outside of work. I was stalking you on LinkedIn earlier.

Robyn Reynolds: Oh, good.

Ben Aston: And I saw you’re the publicity director for Sons of Norway Anchorage.

Robyn Reynolds: Oh, I need to change that. No, so, my dad’s from Norway. And I come from a pretty heavy Norwegian background, in terms of cultural traditions. And my dad was running a lodge up there, of Norwegians. Right, they get together, and they do language classes and they eat Norwegian food. That helped me to strengthen my skills in terms of email and website deployments and all sorts of stuff. So no longer, no longer.

Ben Aston: Oh, well you need to update it.

Robyn Reynolds: I do. I was caught.

Ben Aston: Called out. Apparently on LinkedIn you’ve been doing it for like, I don’t know, 10 years.

Robyn Reynolds: I’m very experienced, yes.

Ben Aston: I was impressed. I was very impressed. So okay, if you’re not doing Sons of Norway anymore, in Anchorage, I thought it was interesting. It was a Norwegian society in Alaska, but you were doing it from Portland, and I thought that is fascinating.

Robyn Reynolds: No, I’m sorry to disappoint.

Ben Aston: So what else you doing then?

Robyn Reynolds: Well, I recently turned 30, and so, I don’t know why, but I kind of try to make myself uncomfortable a lot more in my free time. Which is odd, like doing this podcast for example. But also, I put up a glamping tent at my house, and posted on Airbnb this past summer, and that was really fun.

Ben Aston: Nice.

Robyn Reynolds: But when I’m not doing weird, uncomfortable things like that, I drink a lot of craft brews here in the Pacific Northwest. I like to visit with friends, and you know, obviously I binge Netflix like all of us.

Ben Aston: Especially with you being, well it sounds like, in the middle of nowhere next to your trees and stream.

Robyn Reynolds: No.

Ben Aston: So apart from, you pitched the tent in your backyard, and you sold the world, or sold the Airbnb world on your glamping idea. But what other things have you done to make yourself uncomfortable. If this is your thing, make yourself uncomfortable. Yeah, what else you doing to be uncomfortable?

Robyn Reynolds: So, another thing I did to make myself uncomfortable and challenge myself, is that I climbed the tallest mountain in Oregon, Mount Hood. It’s about a 30 minutes drive from my house, and so I was staring at it, after I was commuting back from Portland everyday for about two years. And I was like, alright, fine, I’m coming after you. And so I figured out how to get a lot of training hikes in. And me and my friend Linda did it, and it was probably one of the hardest, but also most exciting things I’ve done.

Ben Aston: That is cool. That street, I was Googling it, hence my kind of ignoring you for a minute. Three and half thousand meters, just about. Last erupted in 1907, for those who are interested.

Robyn Reynolds: It is still active. So.

Ben Aston: Was it smoky?

Robyn Reynolds: No, I mean, you can smell sulfur around. And what’s really scary is we did it pretty early in the season, and so, there was a lot of snowfall. And someone actually ended up dying that day up there, which is very, very sad. So, be safe while climbing everybody.

Ben Aston: Be safe. It’s one of those proper mountains that’s got snow on it. So, that’s a big deal people. Cool. So, let’s talk about Dear DPM. And three months ago, and it was a long time ago sadly. Though Robyn and I are both project managers, we wanted to do this properly. So, a lot of planning has gone into this. And, Robyn messaged me, totally out of the blue, and said, I think we should do an anonymous advice column for digital project managers. And, so three months later, here it is. But, Robyn, this is all your idea. I’m kind of jumping on your bandwagon. So for those who haven’t checked it out yet, what is Dear DPM all about?

Robyn Reynolds: Absolutely. Well, first of all, thank you Ben for being even open to this idea. I know I just kind of randomly pinged you. So, I appreciate that. But, you see I love love love, so many different advice columns and podcasts that are out there. From Savage Love, to Dear Sugar, to plain old Dear Abby. There’s, I think something really special and lovely about learning and empathizing with other people’s issues, and then relating back to them. So, for me, I know there’s been a lot of times that I’ve referenced back to those columns, or thought back, when I was faced with a similar situation. And it’s made me all the wiser. So, in our industry though, as DPMs, we’re in an incredibly challenging role. And we’re constantly dealing with other people’s problems. And not necessarily focusing attention on our own, right? So we’re adapting, and facilitating, and sending, and editing and scoping, but sometimes, we’re faced with challenges where we just, I think, need to be open with others in our community and consult without showing that weakness or fear to an internal team or a client.
So, I just really wanted to create a community where we could provide some third party advice, and see if we can help somebody else out, and get a fresh perspective.

Ben Aston: Yeah, awesome. And so, yeah we posted up some sample questions that people might want to ask us. And just to, help explain the concept, we have a new page on thedigitalprojectmanager.com. If you head to the community section, you’ll find Dear DPM. And you can find this new page that we’ve created there and on the page, there is a form. And, all you need to do to submit a question, and the idea is that you can submit it anonymously. So, whereas in other forums and settings, there would be a record of you asking this question for all eternity. The beauty of this, is that you’re asking it anonymously. And, Robyn and I receive your question and then, we’ll answer your Dear DPM questions. And we kind of posted a few questions up there already, we’ll talk about those in a second. But we gave some sample questions as well. So for example, have you started a new job and realized you’ve made a huge mistake? Do you work with a creative diva that drives you up the wall? Or do you get panic attacks from the constant ping of slack notifications? These were all kind of Robyn’s idea as sample questions.
So I have to ask, Robyn, are these all things you’ve had yourself? Are these personal issues that you’ve encountered?

Robyn Reynolds: Well, I mean they’re kind of pretty universal DPM issues, right? I mean, can’t you think back to a time when you’re like, oh, I guess that happened to me. The scenario though, is controversial.

Ben Aston: Yeah, so I mean, I mean, it’s trick to talk about. But let’s do this. So, yeah go into that, starting a new job and realizing you’ve made a huge mistake. I feel like, I have to be honest, almost every time I’ve started a new job, I’ve felt that way. And, you start at a new place, and all of a sudden, all the things you realize you were confident in previously at your old job. Suddenly you run into new systems and new processes, and new people, and you’re like, I hate this, this is awful.

Robyn Reynolds: Totally.

Ben Aston: I don’t know if you’ve had a similar experience.

Robyn Reynolds: Totally. And I’m over here nodding my head because, it’s like, if you’re not experiencing that at a new job, I feel like almost you haven’t started it maybe, I don’t know. I feel like that’s a totally human moment to go through.

Ben Aston: Yeah, I remember one agency that I started out at, and I feel like the worst kind of jobs where you feel like you’ve made a huge mistake. So, this is my first job, when I transitioned, it wasn’t my first job. I guess it was my third job, or something. Anyway, so I transitioned from account management to a new role. And I was told, I went through the interview process. I was perfectly honest about what I did. At the time, I was an account manager, I’d been an account exec. I moved up to an account manager at like a traditional ad agency. And, yeah, I interviewed at an agency called DARE. And, what happened was, I was told, hey, yeah, the role is for something called a producer. It’s pretty much the same as you’ve been doing already, don’t worry about that. I was like cool, that sounds interesting. So my job title changed from account manager to producer.
And it was my first day on the job, and I was handed a project and told, okay, so we need an estimate for this, a project panel, a statement of work. And I was like, oh, who’s, is there a PM I’m supposed to work with on this? And they were like, no you’re doing it. And I’m like, okay. And then, it was a that point, that I realized I’d never actually done, created a project plan before. I’d never done an estimate, I’d never done a statement of work. I’d always worked with a PM. And they did it for me. I was just the one that sold it to the client. And so that day, was one of those moments where I was like, oh my gosh, this was a really bad idea. I have no idea what I’m doing.

Robyn Reynolds: Oh my gosh.

Ben Aston: That was by far. Thankfully, in that situation, there was some great people. At the agency, at DARE. Some people who were really, really helpful. They were really supportive, and I didn’t fully reveal how little I knew. But I did have to kind of sneakily watch YouTube videos on how to use Microsoft Project, to create these project plans. And by the end of the day, I was like, hey I got this. So these things, particularly like they’re things that we have to create. They’re not really that tricky. So I was away within a few days. But that was certainly one of my moments where I was like, this is such a bad idea. What am I doing here?

Robyn Reynolds: Oh my gosh. I totally agree with like, sometimes you just have to fake it until you make it, right?

Ben Aston: Yeah.

Robyn Reynolds: And you have to remain humble obviously. In that situation, but you have to be like, okay, I’m gonna figure this out. Because, I think at the root of all of us, as digital project managers, we have this core set of always trying to solve these problems, right? And skills can be taught. Since you are now a master of Microsoft Project.

Ben Aston: Yeah, I think it’s so true, like, we are, I think the fun thing about digital project management is that we, you know, it’s always evolving, there’s always something new. Like, the kind of projects that we work on, are constantly evolving. So we’re not working on the same things that we were working on five years ago. Where as, I used to do Saxton Banner campaigns, and flash campaign micro sites. That the client would spend like half a million pounds on, for a month long campaign. Which we don’t do that kind of thing anymore. But we have much different challenges, like working with Action Script, and working with flash. And yeah, like what I see coming in terms of working with virtual reality, and like how do you create a user experience in a virtual reality scenario? Those are the kinds of things that I think, oh hold on. You have to figure out a way of doing it. And there’s a sense in which you are, like, faking it til you make it.
Because like, there’s always a first time that you have to do it, and you have to kind of establish that process and then refine it. But someone has to kind of show somebody the ship and work out a plan and see if that plan can be executed. Otherwise, you just have a whole load of people who’ve got no ideas what they’re doing.

Robyn Reynolds: Absolutely. And sometimes I like to use the term scrappy. Right? Which has a negative connotation, but it’s like, you know, in that circumstance, maybe nobody knows how to get to that end point, right. So we just have to keep trying and adjust a couple things to get there.

Ben Aston: Yeah, for sure. So, tell us about your creative diva who drove you up the wall?

Robyn Reynolds: Oh, I’ve had a few. Which, I bet you have too. But, there’s a few really standout people that I don’t know. Lots of storming out of meetings. Had to come up with very, very unique ways to get a hold of people at times.

Ben Aston: What’s the, tell us the story about what you’ve had to do to get a hold of a creative director who’s hiding at the pub?

Robyn Reynolds: Oh. That’s actually happened. Well, locally, the pub was in my building.

Ben Aston: Oh, nice.

Robyn Reynolds: So, I would be like, oh, where’s so and so for this meeting? And I would have to go down and peel them out. And sometimes I would tell on them, which is kind of facetious. But, I don’t know. One time I held a retrospective as a drinking game, and that got everybody present for my meeting, so. There you go.

Ben Aston: Yeah. Speak their language.

Robyn Reynolds: Yeah, and now what’s beautiful about remote work, though, is I don’t have to buy people lunch anymore. I don’t have to view their expense reports, or, you know, that sort of thing. So I feel quite free.

Ben Aston: Well, that’s a beautiful thing. But so then, tell me about how kind of your experiences of becoming a DPM and obviously like a senior PM now. What’s your journey been like in terms of like the support that you’ve had. And how you’ve coped as you’ve progressed through your career?

Robyn Reynolds: Yeah, so I feel incredibly lucky. I have a very strong group of friends that are project managers, producers, account managers, kind of all within that swaft. Some have been my junior producers and have grown up through the ranks. Others have always been my boss, and I love them so dearly. So that’s always how I’ve coped. Is really relying upon those relationships to gain perspective and hear about their experiences. On that note, I still think that getting like a totally unbiased perspective, is super important. Like sometimes, I think through things by talking to other people about them. So, I want to provide all of you guys a way to do that. So that maybe you don’t turn to crying in the bathroom. Maybe I can just make you feel like you have a lending ear, or give you a little digital pat on the back, you know? I’ll help you write that shit, if you don’t have somebody to go to, or if you don’t like the answer they gave you. So, I mean, Ben, how do you cope? What do you do?

Ben Aston: Generally cry in the bathroom.

Robyn Reynolds: Yeah.

Ben Aston: Yeah, no, I think that talking to people is always really helpful. And I think, yeah, I’ve been lucky too throughout my career. Either it being the kind of account person, that I was working alongside. It was often the case. I’d be working with an account director, and I get on pretty well usually with those people. Or just other people on my team. But I think, you know, I do remember, some scenarios though, in some agencies I’ve been in where I’m like, hold on, I’ve got no one to talk to right now. This is really tricky. And then it becomes really stressful, right, when you’re trying to just deal with the situation by yourself, and you don’t want to necessarily have to escalate it.
Cause like you say, as soon as you do escalate things, sometimes it makes things more serious than they need to be. And, sometimes you just need some reassurance that hey, just keep on going, you’re on the right track. Without, yeah, like escalating it to the CEO, and then all kinds of terrible things.

Robyn Reynolds: And there’s also been times when my mentor or my boss at the time was like, oh, you’re kind of overreacting. And that’s been really appreciated too, right? To be like, you’re freaking out about a dumb thing.

Ben Aston: Yeah. Do you know, I think it’s interesting with the shift to more people working remotely, whether or not everyone’s remote or just some people are remote. I think it can be really easy to overreact to, because a lot of communication we’re doing is written communication. I’m not just walking across the office anymore. There’s so much more potential to like, misinterpret people and to accidentally overreact to stuff.

Robyn Reynolds: Totally. And slack is like a gold mine for problems, right? I’ve learned some emojis are naughty. You know, don’t use them. (laughs)

Ben Aston: Well, then, I should probably know this. Which ones shouldn’t I be using?

Robyn Reynolds: Like, the twins one? The girls that are twins and dancing.

Ben Aston: Okay, I don’t know that one.

Robyn Reynolds: Do they not have that in Canada?

Ben Aston: No, I don’t think so.

Robyn Reynolds: I’ll send it to you afterwards.

Ben Aston: Yeah, thanks, appreciate that. Okay, that’s one not to use.

Robyn Reynolds: So yeah, that’s always fun to navigate that.

Ben Aston: And, yeah, are there any, just kind of moving away from, like the peer group you were talking about. Like with your mentors and other people on your team. I know that you’re also involved, are you not, with the Portland DPM Meetup?

Robyn Reynolds: Oh, yeah. Definitely. Sorry, my mute button was on there. But, I’m casually involved with them. I don’t run it. I’m an avid attendee. But I was just actually on the panel last Tuesday. And that was a really fun experience for me. I got to talk about, you know, ask a PM, with everybody. I was one of the four represented individuals, and that was exciting. And I love our PM community here in Portland, because we’re not account executives, right? We’re all a little bit of extroverted introverts. So, we’ll like get together and we’ll talk, then everybody leaves. And, the events are really well organized. There’s drinks, there’s food, and there’s no recruiters. It’s just a beautiful place.

Ben Aston: It’s funny. That that’s how you describe the meetup. Because yeah, I’ve been to the Vancouver PM meetup. And you know, it’s funny, everyone’s quite happy to go along to the meeting. But I feel like hardly anyone goes to the after drinks. Everyone’s kind of like, ah, I’ve got other plans.

Robyn Reynolds: Totally, yeah.

Ben Aston: I wonder if that’s a universal thing? That’s interesting.

Robyn Reynolds: Yeah. And nobody ever gets wild or crazy. Everybody’s in control, so.

Ben Aston: Yeah, that’s also very true. Interesting. I like your meta analysis of the PM meetup. You’re on a panel. What was the panel being asked about then?

Robyn Reynolds: It was called, Ask a PM. So there was four of us. I kind of represented the remote job, right? I’m cool. And then there was a freelancer, there was somebody that moved into client services, and another individual that was a strategist. So, we kind of had several different prompts, and then some breakout sessions to support that.

Ben Aston: Nice.

Robyn Reynolds: Yeah.

Ben Aston: Cool, and by the way, if you’re hearing about meetups for the first time, again. Go to the community section of thedigitalprojectmanager.com and you’ll see we’ve got posts there all about all the meetups. All the digital project manager meetups that we’ve found. If you’ve got a meetup, and you’re not featured on there, let me know, and I’ll add you to it. But they can be a really helpful source of advice and information and staying up to date with what’s going on. And that kind of leads me to my question for you. You’re talking about this conferencing tool that you love. And what else have you got in your remote PM toolkit? What do you use to manage your people and your projects?

Robyn Reynolds: Totally. So my toolkit has shifted, as I’ve moved from primarily, in an office environment, to being 100% remote. So, for me slack is really heavily used. Right? Gotta choose the right emojis, gotta have the right channels, gotta have the right conversations going on. And integrations there. So, in addition to this, I always rely personally on my own written list. I’ve learned over the years that I work best with my priority list, written down. Anywhere else, I’m gonna miss it. And then.

Ben Aston: And so this is your priority list is on paper?

Robyn Reynolds: Yeah. Like I have notebooks, and then I’m kind of weird, in that like I’ll save my notebooks until I’m done with my job.

Ben Aston: Ohh.

Robyn Reynolds: Isn’t that OCD? Yeah. And then I throw them all away. But it’s quite fun. It’s like a diary of boring entries.

Ben Aston: I did used to use notebooks. And then, I did love the aspect that you could go back and like, at the top of each page, you’d have a date. And you’d be like, I know exactly what I did on the 9th of September, 2015, because it’s on this page. And I’m like, hey I remember that.

Robyn Reynolds: Totally. But you know, we’re DPM, so we’re always looking at other tools. And I think that’s where it’s fun. I always like to try out different things. But what sticks is far and few between for me. So.

Ben Aston: So, Slack.

Robyn Reynolds: So Slack sticks.

Ben Aston: Yeah.

Robyn Reynolds: And everything goes into Slack, pretty much, right?

Ben Aston: But what are you using to like, manage your timelines and your projects more broadly?

Robyn Reynolds: Yeah, so right now, at Dream 10, we’re using Flow. Which is a pretty simple version of like Trello. Or Camden Board. And that’s been very fun. I can assign my tasks, I can have different channels and timelines within that.

Ben Aston: Cool. I’ve not heard of Flow.

Robyn Reynolds: Yeah, I hadn’t either. But now I’m an evangelist of Flow. It’s great. Simple. It’s better sometimes.

Ben Aston: Yeah, yeah I think. I think it also depends on the project, right? Sometimes when we try to use the same tools for like a big project, that’s like a big technical web build, and then you’ve got a, like your strategy UX project. Like, trying to use Jirra for both, just doesn’t make sense.

Robyn Reynolds: Totally.

Ben Aston: I think we can sometimes try and tie ourselves down to like, okay, here’s our process, and here’s our tools. And then we have a project or a client that just doesn’t fit within it. And then I’m like, yeah, that didn’t work. So I think being more flexible about it. But then, integrating with different things, so like, having a times two system. They can interact with Jira. That can interact with the sauna. Or Flow, whatever it is. I think makes a lot of sense.

Robyn Reynolds: You know what’s funny, is that years ago, I went to the inaugural Portland DPM meetup. And it was at Instrument, which is a really great shop here.

Ben Aston: Yeah.

Robyn Reynolds: And they were talking about how they don’t have a set process. And I had a total epiphany. Where, just because you work at this one location, and you do things that way, that doesn’t mean that every project needs to be that way. You can adapt your toolset, you can adapt your approach depending on the project and your team, and that’s okay. And, I’ve really embraced that every since.

Ben Aston: Yeah, I’ll tell you. I think if you’re working at an agency where you’re doing different stuff. I think some agencies, when they’re kind of rolling out the same, kind of projects, each month. You’re always working on a, I don’t know, a website redesign project, and that’s kind of all you do. It makes sense to standardize. But if you’re doing slightly different things, and you’re never quite sure what’s gonna come in the door. I think it’s always good to stay flexible.

Robyn Reynolds: Absolutely.

Ben Aston: So, we kind of beginning to run out of time. But, to plug again, the Dear DPM. Head over to the community section of the site, and you’ll find a link there. We’ve already covered some topics. Should I stay or should I go now? All about, staying in your job or quitting it? A little bit lost, Lady Boss. Brilliant title. And I’ve forgot, and I’ve go to be honest. What was that one about?

Robyn Reynolds: That’s about a woman that is considering should she leave her job or should she stay there and kind of support financially her family. So, pretty heavy.

Ben Aston: That is pretty heavy. And then on a lighter note, I just published one today, all about time sheets. Which is a really, and I think this is actually a really common problem. My team isn’t filling in their timesheets. What should I do about it? So, check out the answers to those questions and fill out your own. We’d love to have your questions. And we’ll be, probably doing a few more of these podcasts, as we’ll be recovering off some more of the questions that come in. Also, if you’d like to contribute to the conversation, and you’re not part of our Slack team, again, go to the community section of thedigitalprojectmanager.com. You’ll find a link there to join us on our membership community. But until next time, thanks for listening.