How To Make A Career Out Of What Interests You

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Michael Mordak: Hey, it's Michael from The Digital Project Manager and welcome to today's Member Spotlight!

We've managed to string together the biggest and baddest collection of project managers who are out there creating change and challenging the paradigms that exist in projects today. Which is why we're sharing their stories, the personal and professional twists and turns we take while trying to answer the age-old question—"What do you want to be?", so you can get there too. 

Today we're speaking with esteemed community member and director of project management at 256 Sara Fisher. Sara has long held a passion for both graphic design and accounting, two paths that might appear to sit at opposite ends of the career spectrum. It might also appear to have nothing to do with project management, but by being aware and open to the opportunities around her, she accidentally fell into a role where she can combine her many passions into one.

Sara, what I'd love to do is find out, before we get too far into it, just what you had in mind for your career, maybe when you were younger growing up, was there anything that you had in your brain that you knew you wanted to do for sure?

Sara Fisher: So starting with LS series, the answer to this question, I'm pretty sure the first time someone asked me this, my answer was a roller skating dentist.

I was only four, so I clearly didn't know what the question meant, and I had probably recently been to the dentist, an unrelatedly birthday party at a skating rink. And I thought to myself, going to the dentist is weird and boring, but going to the dentist while roller skating would be way cooler. But more seriously, later on, my first real answer to this question was definitely an artist.

I've always been attracted to color, design, creativity. I was one of those kids that loved getting their hands dirty with arts and crafts projects. And then later in high school, this morphed into wanting to be a graphic designer. So by the time I was signing up for college, I narrowed down my top program choices between two completely different degrees, which were graphic design or accounting. 

Couldn't be more different. I ultimately decided on graphic design, but do still have an affinity and soft spot for accounting that many of my friends and colleagues just don't understand, to be honest. And I find organizing numbers to be oddly calming and satisfying. And now I get to channel that into budget and scoping spreadsheets for the projects I manage. So it worked out. 

Michael Mordak: That's so interesting because it really is opposite sides of the brain there. It's like the creativity side, like you said, expressing color and creativity. And then there's that side of analyzing numbers and organizing them into readable information.

It's also a huge range as well, from dentists to roller skating, to graphic designer and accounting. I mean, you've got a wide range of interests. 

Sara Fisher: Got everything. What more would you want? 

Michael Mordak: Yeah, you mentioned you picked graphic design into college and then where did you go from there? So you took the program and did you go into graphic design after you had graduated?

Sara Fisher: So looking back, it makes perfect sense that I'd end up specializing in project management for creative businesses. So at the end of my senior year in undergrad, I had just finished my communication design degree and I had my eye on an administrative assistant job opening at a creative agency that specialized in the production of static and animated web banners and emails, things like that.

So I interviewed for the role and during the conversation, I showed them my design portfolio and told them I was interested in transitioning into a designer position if one opened up and they were open to the idea, but said their immediate need was to find someone that would help them keep their project files and calendar organized. 

And to manage setting up projects in their project management system, and this was probably the first time in my life I'd heard the term project management system. I ended up getting the job and surprisingly enough, it was fully remote, which was rare back then. And within the first week I'd learned that there is no system in place for assigning projects out to the team of designers and the calendar was essentially a free for all. So, designers would look at the calendar and assign projects to themselves each morning and I noticed the team running into issues where designers ended up working on the same projects at the same time.

And this was a quick turn environment where most of our projects took just a matter of hours to complete. So it was a nightmare in terms of workflow and I think this is truly where I accidentally became a project manager. I slowly started assigning things out to people. Eventually it became the norm.

So I tracked asset delivery from clients and help the designers stay organized so they knew when their projects were due. I became a translator of vague client instructions for the designers in ways that made sense for production and vice versa, and I think it really helped like I mentioned earlier, it's like right brain and left brain.

I've got the analytical, but I also can speak creative. And I think that really helped me out and I still use that today. So I didn't know it back then, but it's so clear to me now that I was doing project management the entire time. And ever since then, even if my job title didn't have project manager in it, I built on those skills and there was probably an aspect of project management involved somewhere.

Michael Mordak: It's funny because I mean, like you said, you just applied for the role because it was there because it was a small town. But it actually, based on your interests, almost aligned perfectly. It was a role where you're speaking with designers, but you get to organize them. And you can really tell that there was just no management involved.

That they're grabbing all the same projects and working on them at the same time. That would have been absolute chaos, I can imagine. 

Sara Fisher: Yeah, and it was great because I did get to design, it just wasn't the main function of my job. Eventually later on, once I got used to the types of projects and what we were doing, if the team was all up, they just started giving me design projects on the side, and eventually that turned into, Oh, Sara's really good at the technical stuff too. So if I have issues with my file, this was back in the day when we still used Flash to make like animated banners. 

I would get in there and make sure Oh, is there click tag in the right spot? And I was the go to person at the time and ended up training people and creating training, like production workflow guides and they needed someone like that because it wasn't really being housed anywhere and I like documentation. I like training people and helping people, so it all worked out. And eventually, instead of being transitioned into a designer role, I was the assistant manager by the end at that place. So that worked out for me. I'm pretty happy about that. 

Michael Mordak: You mentioned there are some ways, obviously with your background, being analytical, you already had experience that you brought into the job. Were there any other specific skills or concepts that you had naturally that you brought into that role and it helped you thrive in that right away?

Sara Fisher: Yeah. So I have a natural inclination for organization and clarity, which really helped me out and still does. I'm the type of person who wants to understand why, and even if I didn't understand what I needed to do to complete a certain task, organization and clarity would guide me to where I needed to go most of the time.

Not always, but most of the time. And I worked at a public library in high school, started out as a shelver there, and that job was a great outlet for my love of organization. Since the primary function of the job is to put things away and keep things organized, so we used the Dewey Decimal system to shelve our non-fiction books and that may have been my first official introduction to organizational systems at a job, which now I use almost every day as a project manager.

I also worked as a floral designer at a couple of flower shops through high school, here and there in college. And I definitely learned the concept of time management and the importance of knowing the amount of time it took me to complete an arrangement or a task and how there was an ebb and flow of business. And I learned that holidays like Valentine's Day and Mother's Day were the days we'd all start work early and work super late.

And sometimes we needed to bring in extra help to get all the orders completed. I'd also help to make sure we had all the supplies we needed to complete our orders. And if we were low, I'd let my managers know so that they could make sure everything was in, so we could get through all of our order tickets.

And now, in project management terms, I've since learned that this is known as resource management, which I also use on a daily basis at work. So that was really helpful. Another thing I learned at the flower shops was the value of keeping customers happy, because without happy customers, it's impossible to get paid.

And that still rings true for the projects I manage today. 

Michael Mordak: I'm also really intrigued to know, you mentioned that, you were using the Dewey Decimal system, that was your first introduction to like organization. Are you using the Dewey Decimal system at work? Or have you adapted it to use it toward what you're doing on a daily basis?

Sara Fisher: I wouldn't call it the Dewey Decimal system, but for file naming conventions. Maybe the file name starts with a date code, because you need to know chronologically when it was made, and that's the most important thing maybe, depending on whatever the application was. And then it might be like, underscore client name, underscore whatever the acronym for the ad format was, or the dimensions that it was. So, I mean, yeah, it's not Dewey Decimal, but that's one example of yeah, file naming, or folder naming, any of that stuff.

And definitely used some organizational systems for sure. 

Michael Mordak: Those were some skills that you had built up over time and brought into the job. But then once you started working it, where were those areas that you knew you needed to upskill? And where were the spots that you were not so awesome at the job?

Sara Fisher: I think one of the biggest challenges I personally struggled with at the admin assistant job I mentioned earlier was spending too much time focusing on details that ultimately didn't affect the end goal. That and realizing organizational improvements I may have wanted to make may not have been the best for the entire team.

It may not have moved the needle in any significant way other than towards my own self satisfaction, which isn't important in the grand scheme of things. And to this day, sometimes I'll get sucked into hyper focusing on building a new workflow or organizational system when in reality, I should be putting my time elsewhere and focusing more on what really contributes to end goals.

And these days I catch myself much sooner when I go down this path, because I've built some self awareness around it. And I'm certainly not perfect, but I've learned to remind myself that even though I may be the most organized person in the room, and it's just part of my personality, I wasn't necessarily hired to hyper organize everything around me at work. There's a balance between it all, and boundaries can be really healthy in that regard. So, for example, I can use that energy to keep my closet organized by the ROYGBIV color spectrum, and no one else is affected by it. I get to enjoy it.

No one else is annoyed by it, so it's just a win-win. I'd also get frustrated if clients change their minds about a project request or a direction for a deliverable. I'd get so flustered in those situations where a project request got set up and it had really clear instructions and the deliverables were produced to a tee, sent to the client, and then the client comes back and says, "This isn't what I wanted at all", or, "Sorry, we're going in a different direction." 

And over time I've learned that as much as I wanted to keep things on the rails the entire time, and I wanted things to be straightforward, projects will almost always not go according to plan. And once I stopped fighting this idea, I learned to accept that projects are constantly changing and change is part of every project and the best project managers know how to adapt to these changes and still end up with a really happy team and really happy clients.

And although some changes really are completely unforeseen, asking clarifying questions can sometimes help prevent that from happening. So trial and error was definitely my friend and managing these oversights and still is as well as time passing. But sometimes things come with time and are difficult to understand until you've lived through them. And I've been in this field for over 12 years now and at this point, I've built like a little Rolodex in my mind of things to look out for.

When certain issues arise while managing a project, like I have examples to pull out of my mind of what went wrong, what went well, and I can pull from these past examples to help make better decisions in the future. And I can also look around to see what others are doing in similar situations. So I guess a way to summarize my blind spot scenarios that I needed to upskill earlier on in my career, it comes down to seeing the big picture versus living down and dirty in the details.

And the more I manage projects, the more I realized that being able to see the bigger picture is so helpful and important. And details are great, they can be really helpful, but being hyper fixated on the details may not be the best for myself or the team or the client. You have to be able to see the whole thing in order to know what's best sometimes.

Michael Mordak: That's a great summary. One thing you mentioned toward the end there was, the importance of trial and error, performing those retrospectives and looking back at, okay, thinking critically for a second at what went well, what didn't go well, and where are those areas where we can improve.

Would you say that there's a shortcut to getting to there sooner, or is that trial and error something that you just have to go through?

Sara Fisher: I truly think trial and error is something that you have to go through. I think there's so many nuances from project to project, like the team makeup and client dynamics.

You can't just cut and paste examples you read online to any project you're managing. It was hard for me at the beginning. I wanted everything to be figured out because that's just how I am. And it took me a while to realize there's always going to be changes. I can help document things and streamline things.

But under the assumption that this will change a month from now, six months from now. So I think earlier on I had my blinders on only what I was doing, because it was my first role in that industry ever. And since then, it's wow, I was spending a lot of time obsessing about what to call a certain file in the grand scheme of things.

Yeah, I could've eased back on that a little bit, but. 

Michael Mordak: I can definitely relate to that situation of having those blinders on and just focusing on the task at hand. It's really hard to look beyond, those blinders and look beyond that immediate task when you don't even really understand your job title.

You might not identify as a project coordinator or a project manager. You're just trying to tackle what comes across your plate or what you think is on your plate kind of thing. One thing that you mentioned that, you've done over time to fill that gap is you've become a little bit more self aware.

And I was wondering if you just share some of the strategies or some of the things you maybe do to build that self awareness.

Sara Fisher: Sure. I guess, unrelatedly, I'm also a trauma informed yoga instructor. So I've done a lot of research and personal work on, like how trauma affects the body, and just being able to look out for subtleties in the body that may indicate that I'm uncomfortable.

It doesn't mean everything is this huge traumatic thing, but human bodies react to situations, and for example, if I am hyperfixating on something when I've got a ton of other things I need to do, and I start realizing did I eat lunch today? Did I sit at my computer for 10 hours without standing up?

It's I'm way more self aware of my own health than I have been in the past. And it's wait, did I take a deep breath or am I holding my breath? It's is my body telling me something? In some way, I may be uncomfortable, and I don't know it yet. I don't understand it yet. My body is saying that I'm uncomfortable, but my brain, it's not registering yet.

So, I've done a lot of work around that, personally. And also I've had some really great managers that helped show me, like, Sara, whoa, you're passionate about this, but it's not that we don't care that you're very analytical and can organize things, but you've got all these other things and you can walk away and that doesn't have to be solved now.

So, having really good managers remind me of that. I've embodied that I hear their voices in the back of my mind sometimes Sara, should you really be putting that much time into that right now? Maybe there's something you can put your energy towards where it's not as heavy as a load on your body or your brain because it does take a lot of work to organize things and that hyper fixation, that's a lot of energy.

So, yeah, I guess that's my input there. 

Michael Mordak: Basically, what you're trying to say is you're going to be leading the next DPM yoga retreat. 

Sara Fisher: Oh, hey, let's talk about that. 

Michael Mordak: Because I'm sure that there are a lot more people that would be happy to take some time off and just focus on relaxing. Maybe we could do like a Monday morning with Sara Fisher.

Sara Fisher: I'm okay with that. 

Michael Mordak: So we've talked about where you started wanting to be a roller skating dentist. You went to school for graphic design, fell into project management. And what I would really love to know is where are you going next? What's the grand picture for Sara?

Sara Fisher: I also want to say too, I still consider myself a graphic designer. It's just not my career. Like I save that energy for just like personal projects and stuff for my friends. I just found that like project manager was a much better choice for me professionally. And I like to be able to use that creativity for my own stuff instead of something I might not feel passion for.

I was doing a lot of car ads and it's make the car drive in from the left in the snowfall. And I just had done so many of those that wasn't designed anymore. It was just repetitive. But anyway looking ahead, right now I'm a director of project management and I do want to explore that more.

But down the line, I think I'd really like to branch out into a director of operations role, or maybe get into project management consulting. I definitely see myself sticking to working with creatives. That's my specialty, the language I speak and my preference. And when I'm passionate about a particular interest, I'm the type of person who wants to know everything there is to know about it. I tend to move on to learning something new when I feel like I've learned everything. 

I move pretty quickly. I'm always learning. I love that feeling of forward momentum. And I also don't like the idea of doing the same thing every single day for the rest of my life so I can feel myself wanting to eventually get away from the daily grind of on the ground project management work.

This is why I've taken that natural progression some project managers take and starting with administrative assistant work and then project coordination work and leading up to where I am now and I made that progression. But up until the last couple of years, it wasn't I didn't know that's what I wanted to do.

I was just well, this is what I did before, and it seems like I have, like I check all the boxes off, so I'll apply and see if I get it. And each of those new positions gets me a little closer to being able to live in that big picture instead of like in the daily details. So I've learned that I like to have time and space to think, and I love to solve problems, and I want to use my skills to solve even bigger ones.

Love a good challenge, so whatever that magical position is, please tell me. 

Michael Mordak: The magical position that challenges us, but does not overwhelm us. 

Sara Fisher: Yeah. 

Michael Mordak: I really love the way that you framed that, and it sounds like what you did is, I mean, obviously you had this passion for graphic design and for creativity, and rather than do what I think a lot of people fall into by accident, chasing their passion, just make it a job.

And kind of to feel disconnected from it, you really found something that's hobby adjacent, I'm going to call it, where you get to work next to that passion of yours, but you're not actually like designing the same car ad six times a day over and over again. And just, working at the whim of clients who have, I will politely say, "just", that's sometimes an odd request. There you go. 

Sara Fisher: Yeah. My project manager senses are going off. I think my telepathy is telling me what you're trying to say. I get it. 

Michael Mordak: Requests that don't always make sense. We'll just say that. Yeah. So I love the way you did that. What I want to do, end this off with just a quick question. I need to know, and our listeners need to know, what is your favorite office snack?

What are you eating at your desk that gets you through the day? Because I know we talked about maybe not eating lunch sometimes and we're all guilty of that.

Sara Fisher: To be honest, this one is really tough because I love food. For the purposes of this podcast, I will say today my favorite snack is chips and guacamole.

They're just so tasty and filling. They're salty, savory, crunchy. And it's just my go to for a quick desk lunch, and if you add sliced turkey to just roll up and eat on the side, you've got a quick meal. You get your protein, you've got your crunch, you've got your sodium, and the avocado gives you all your healthy fats.

And to drink, I'd have to say a London Fog. I tasted my first one when I was in grad school a few years ago and never looked back. I like to make them at home, and I especially love adding lavender to the mix. And to the point that you made when we were planning for this podcast guacamole and chips and London fogs do not go together.

I don't recommend them. It's just those are my top choices, separately. 

Michael Mordak: It's just weird to have a warm drink, I think, with the guacamole, because it's, like, light, refreshing, I don't know. That's just me, though. 

Sara Fisher: Two different flavor profiles that should not go together. 

Michael Mordak: Too much clashing going on.

Anyway, I just want to say again, Sara, thank you so much for coming in and talking. This has been really enlightening. And I think that your story is going to resonate so well with so many people who might've gone through similar progressions while trying to find out, what they want to do.

Because it's a question that, we ask ourselves so often, and we're always trying to find out, what is the best path for us and where should we be focusing our efforts to make the best out of our careers and out of our lives. So I think that this insight will be super helpful. And I really appreciate not only this conversation, but having your voice in our community day after day, because you continually provide a ton of insight for the rest of our members that are in there.

And I know that they, just get so much value out of having your perspective and your experience injected into that conversation. So thank you so much. Really appreciate it. 

Sara Fisher: Yeah. Thanks for having me. I love to do it again. And yeah, the DPM community, I've got a soft spot for them too. I love bouncing ideas off of everyone.

And it really does feel like just a community for people like us project managers. Like I right now am a department of one. So I tend to feel silent sometimes, so having that resource to just hey, what do you think about this idea? Get 10 responses within five minutes. Oh, there are people that are dealing with similar things in their careers. So it's super helpful for me. 

Michael Mordak: Thanks for tuning in to our Member Spotlight with Sara Fisher. She has so much more knowledge and insight to share with you. So if you'd like to come chat with us in the Slack channel, along with our entire community of digital project managers, we'd love to have you! 

You can learn more about it on our website at thedigitalprojectmanager.com/membership.

Thanks for listening, and we'll see you at the next one!