Measuring The True Impact Of Your Projects

[00:00:00] Galen Low: Everybody, uh, welcome to our panel discussion on measuring the true impact of your projects. Uh, we do events like this once every month as a way for our members and our VIP guests to engage directly with the experts who contribute and collaborate with us here at the digital project manager. For those who don't know you, my name is Tomato low.

No, I, my name is Galen low. I'm the co founder of the digital project manager and your host for today. I've also got with me an amazing pair of project management's leading experts, Pam Bukowski and Stephanie best. Um, our third panelist, Frank Gerard, he sends his regrets, but he had an unforeseen conflict come up and we'll get them here next time.

Uh, we will do formal introductions in a bit. Um, but first, I thought, um, maybe we could, uh, do a tradition that we do here at the Digital Project Manager. So, maybe just let us know in the chat where you're joining from, and what your biggest project [00:01:00] management challenge has been lately. It doesn't have to be a long description, even just give me, like, two words that sum it up.

Conflicting requirements. Moving goalposts. Having to Google every possible Excel formula to build a dynamic report. Okay. That last one wasn't two words, but, uh, fill that chat up. And while you do that, I'm going to go through a little bit of housekeeping for today. Um, so I should let you know that this session is being recorded and it will be available for members of our community shortly afterwards, and we may use clips from it on our website and on our social channels, uh, your cameras and microphones are off by default, so you will not appear on the recording.

Um, and the last thing I should mention is that we are going to make some time at the end for questions from our career builder members. If that's you post a question in our live events, slack channel, and we'll answer as many as we can during the Q and a section at the end. Also, if you're not a member and you have a question by all means, feel free to throw it in the chat as well.

I will guide the conversation accordingly. Um, and we do [00:02:00] definitely have some VIP guests in the audience today. So if that is you, welcome. This is just one of a series of monthly sessions that we hold for our members who get access to a number of other benefits, including our entire back catalogue of session recordings like this, our library of templates, uh, a whole bunch of resources, some mini courses, as well as our flagship certification course, Mastering Digital Project Management.

Uh, you can join the fun by going to the digitalprojectmanager. com slash membership. Let's dive in. Um, today's session is all about measuring project impact beyond the iron triangle. Um, so I thought maybe let's just meet our panelists. Uh, first up, I'm going to start with Pam. First up is Pam Bukowski. Um, Pam, you and your team of delivery strategists at Hero recently launched a new experience for the LPGA that's low key making a big difference in the world of women's sports and sports equity.

Um, Pam, What is your, what was your favorite part of the 20 month project, and how much better is your golf game now? [00:03:00]

[00:03:00] Pam Butkowski: Ooh, uh, golf game is no better than it was at the beginning of the project, unfortunately. Uh, but yeah, no, I mean, there were so many things to love about this one. Um, so yeah, we, we redesigned the, uh, LPGA, the Ladies Professional Golf Association.

The website. There was a lot to celebrate about this. The impact that it has on women's sports, giving women athletes a place to shine and kind of like really highlighting their successes and achievements. Selfishly, like this. A lot of long hours, a lot of weekends, uh, a lot of people who touched it. I pulled some of the stats, uh, the other day and we had 74 people within the hero organization who worked on this at some point or another.

So it was, it was a big guy, nearly 25, 000 hours build to it. Like it was, it was a big one. So, uh, but I think my, my favorite thing about it is that, um, it's one of those projects [00:04:00] that I think that we can all kind of look back on at specific points in our careers and we have like. Key projects that just catapulted, uh, our careers and like the trajectory of what we were about to do next was different than it was before that.

And this was that project for so many people. So, uh, it was a fun one to be on.

[00:04:18] Galen Low: I love that angle by the way, just in terms of, I know we're here to talk about project KPIs and project success metrics and like, Why not have it, is it the thing that's going to be on somebody's portfolio now is a huge win.

Like it's something that as project managers, it's really nice. Uh, first of all, as project leaders, as anyone involved in projects, it's a good way for us to look at, you know, our team's contributions to a thing. It's not just work. It's like making a difference. I love

[00:04:44] Stephanie Best: that. Exactly.

[00:04:46] Galen Low: Super cool. Meaningful indeed.

Um, awesome. I'm gonna shift over to Miss Stephanie Best. Um, Stephanie, your consultancy is called Granmar, which is an Irish word that I can't seem to pronounce. [00:05:00] Uh, so my question for you is, what does it mean and how does it reflect what you do for your executive clients?

[00:05:05] Stephanie Best: I love that. Yeah, Granmar. Um, So it is an Irish word.

It means witty and playful. Um, so it can take on different meanings depending on where you are. Um, however, we love this word because we like to approach something that's rather serious, uh, and something that's quite important. Like if you, you need to mature your project operations, um, with a sense of curiosity and empathy and levity as well.

So we feel, uh, Grandma really fits in quite nicely with that, even though most people can't pronounce it, which is another really good discussion point for me. You know, I've considered changing it, um, but I do, I do like the discussion around it and like what it means and its history as well. Like it was, it's a word that reminds me of my father, um, who is a witty Irish man.

Um, so it's sort of a namesake in a way, but yes, I, I'd say that it just, it's our backbone, uh, to some of [00:06:00] our mission and our identity and just how we like to approach our clients and serve them.

[00:06:03] Galen Low: I love that. Now that I know what it means, everything's clicking. Yeah. It's phenomenal. Ah, Witty Projects!

Catalyst.

You know, it's serious fun. It's serious fun.

Super cool. Um, as I mentioned at the top, unfortunately, our third panelist, Franck Gerard, has had a conflict come up today. It's a really good reason. I won't divulge, but it's a good reason. We will get him here for a future panel. Uh, and if you're not familiar with Frank's work, I'd encourage you to look him up on LinkedIn.

There aren't too many people called Frank Girard. Um, and if I have time later, I'll throw it into the chat. Um, but shout out to Frank. Um, all right. I think let's dive in. Let's dive in so that we also have time to get interactive as well. Um, let me just tee this up. Uh, the way I see it, the way I see it is this, the iron triangle of scope, schedule, and budget is taught to [00:07:00] project people as the goalposts, the grail, the sort of raison d'etre for a project manager, and while those factors do definitely play a massive role in ensuring a project doesn't overrun the allocation of resources, it doesn't measure all that much more than in fact, I can name several projects that pass through the iron triangle beautifully before crashing into the side of a mountain in a smoldering blaze.

So while nailing the iron triangle might be a noble mission for project managers and executive sponsors in many, uh, in many industries today, in a digital world where project leaders are being encouraged to be more strategic and outcomes driven and where projects themselves are the ingredients for broader business transformation.

It's not quite good enough for the trinity of scope, schedule, and budget to be the only guiding force. And then the big question is, all right, well, how do we measure project impact? And is it really within the control of even the most strategic project leaders? Um, so yeah, that's the, that's the juicy bits.

Um, and I [00:08:00] see in the chat, some folks, um, You know, the challenge that they are facing is measuring impact for their projects, um, and sort of advocating for the projects and, and, and their purpose. Um, so I thought maybe we could just dive in. I'm going to start with a very just general question for you too.

And the question is in your opinion. What makes a project successful? Maybe. Should I start with Stephanie?

[00:08:23] Stephanie Best: I don't know. You can.

[00:08:25] Galen Low: Either

[00:08:26] Pam Butkowski: way. You know what? This is, this is a really good one. I love, first of all, like, the difference between, uh, what I do and where I'm at. Versus, you know, Stephanie, what you're doing every day.

Like I'm agency land. Uh, and so I think we have very different perspectives too on, on what makes something, uh, a project successful. So this is, this is going to be fun.

[00:08:47] Stephanie Best: I think it's going to be really great because I'm ex agency and now I, I focus a lot on business transformation projects. So it's shifted my mindset of.

What is a successful project. So [00:09:00] for me anyway, um, is client satisfaction, raving fans, work, raving fans, I eat your clients. So my clients, um, and maybe the people that this benefits, uh, and then work that you are proud to stand by. But I have to say also effective risk management. Um, so to me, those are really important successful success factors, um, that are really outside of the iron triangle.

Yeah,

[00:09:26] Galen Low: love it. I love this sort of risk angle. I was having a conversation with someone the other day about the fact that Um, seeing into the future, right, planning, especially for projects is a massive risk. Nobody knows what the future is going to hold. So actually when it all comes down to it, we're doing all these things to try and make things go smoothly vis a vis mitigate risk.

So in some ways, if risk has been managed and mitigated, minimize all those things, transfers accepted. Anyhow, uh, risk has been, you know, addressed, I guess, managed. Um, then. That, that is a [00:10:00] success in terms of like an endeavor of something that we didn't know if it was going to work or not. Um, so I think that's pretty cool.

Yeah. Pam, you're right. You do have a bit of a different perspective

[00:10:11] Pam Butkowski: from the

[00:10:12] Galen Low: agency side.

[00:10:13] Pam Butkowski: I do. You know, I think that, um, I agree with everything that Stephanie said. First of all, um, the, the risk piece is a really cool angle to look at it through. Um, there's. Things are going to go wrong on every project, right?

Like, you can't mitigate every risk. And so I think that on the flip side of that, like, what you do when something does go wrong, uh, did your team rally? Did you stay positive? Did you, uh, handle it seamlessly for your client? Uh, did you quickly put together a plan that was feasible? Like, I think those are all, like, what you do when something goes wrong, uh, also contributes to whether something was successful or not.

But Uh, from from the agency perspective, uh, we like to say we don't want one and done [00:11:00] work. Uh, if a project, uh, we launch a site, if that continue or that relationship with the client continues beyond that, it was successful. Uh, obviously we're looking at things like margin for the agency. We're looking at things like, um, like our resourcing mix and utilization and are we keeping the right people busy, right?

Like there's some operational stuff, uh, when you're in an agency that you want to take into account as well. But if that relationship with the client continues past your original SOW, that's the biggest success metric for us.

[00:11:34] Galen Low: I love that you both went there in terms of something that's like lasting and longer term than just like the sort of window of a project.

Um, and I will force your hand about project KPIs in a second here, but I do like that idea that it's like, does it allow us to continue is actually like a, a massive way of looking at. Any kind of collaboration, but especially a project because it's like, are we gonna continue working for this client? Is this business still going to continue to be viable to run?

You know, are we, is our strategy [00:12:00] viable? Is that gonna continue? Um, did we burn everyone out now? You know, do we have attrition? Do we have churn? You know, is everyone rage quitting, you know, flipping their desk? Uh, 'cause that probably won't let something continue. Um, and that's actually a really interesting way to look at it.

Huh.

[00:12:16] Stephanie Best: Good answer too. I think it's a really important part of that. Is like, can we continue?

[00:12:23] Pam Butkowski: Yeah. And I mean, Galen, you touched on this at the beginning too, that, uh, like you've seen projects where technically on paper, like we hit every part of the iron triangle, it was on time. It was on budget. We delivered what we scoped.

Uh, but we talked about this when we were just chatting before a little bit, like if everybody on the team hates each other at the end. And if everybody is like, I don't even know if I want to be a project manager anymore, like that's not a success. We made money and we delivered it on time, but people are yeah, rage quitting and flipping their desks and leaving.

Like that's, that's not good. That's not good. [00:13:00] Not

[00:13:00] Galen Low: sustainable. Yeah, right, if we're all bloody

[00:13:02] Pam Butkowski: and bruised at the end, that's not a success. No.

[00:13:05] Stephanie Best: No. Battle wounds? No.

[00:13:07] Galen Low: No. No. Love it. Well, thank you for dodging my questions on KPIs. But, I have something up my sleeve, which But just because I do want to get into, you know, some of the things, um, that you both mentioned, right?

Like the actual sort of metrics themselves, um, and measuring that sort of impact in terms of like, why does this project exist? Um, and I think it can be a bit of a layer cake, to be honest with you. Um, so I thought I'd, I'd ask a loaded question, which is just who, who defines how a project is measured in terms of achieving its KPIs or business outcomes?

And then who is accountable for achieving those KPIs in your experience? This time I'm going to start with Pam. Oh, I'm going to go with Pam. I'm going to just switch it up.

[00:13:50] Stephanie Best: I jumped on the last one, so you go first on this one.

[00:13:54] Pam Butkowski: I got you. Um, yeah, I mean, the layer cake is a really great analogy, [00:14:00] uh, because there can be different KPIs based on what type of organization you're in, what type of work you're doing, right?

Who are your audiences? Who's actually benefiting from the product you're building? Again, I'm speaking from an agency perspective here, but we typically have a couple of different sets of KPIs. One for our client, one for us. Uh, and so for our client, it's really important to, and like for the product itself, once it goes live, uh, the, the success metrics and the KPIs for that, uh, and for our client's organization, we like to define really clearly up front with our clients.

Uh, put them in a project charter, make sure everyone is aligned on it, For us, we need to make sure that it's something that we can actually commit to, right? Uh, we need to make sure that if we're, if we're writing it or like writing it in a document that gets a signature on it, it needs to be measurable.

It needs to be feasible. It needs to be something that we can actually deliver. Uh, and so there is kind of a balance. We can't say we're just, we're going to increase your, [00:15:00] like your ROI, like big, big consulting words. Like, no, it needs to be measurable. Your traffic will increase by this much. Uh, your, uh, ad clicks will increase by this much.

Uh, very clear, again, measurable, yes we hit it or no we didn't KPIs. Uh, on the flip side for us, we're looking at things like, I touched on margin earlier, but are we going to make money on it? Uh, things like awards, uh, in agency land, that's really important. And maybe we're willing to, uh, make a little bit less on a project and discount it to win the work because we know that it's going to be really cool and innovative and win us awards and get us press.

Um, and so there's a whole separate set for us. We like to prioritize.

[00:15:48] Galen Low: That's what's really interesting about it. Cause there is that sort of wants removed where it's like, okay, I can't promise you that your sales are going to go through the roof because I don't really control your product. I might just be rebuilding your website.

You know, [00:16:00] like I, I might just be doing a marketing campaign, you know, they can get to the checkout, but you know, the whole convincing of the bite might be out of my control. Um, and just recognizing that and having that conversation that of course, at the beginning of a project, everyone wants everything to be a, you know, just a smash hit.

We're going to, you know, get to the moon, um, but it can be.

[00:16:19] Pam Butkowski: And it is okay to have some fuzzier KPIs with your clients, but those are more objectives, right? Those aren't actual KPIs. Uh, a KPI, as we all know, needs to be something that you can measure. You can definitively say, yes, I achieved it or no, I didn't.

Um, for LPGA, for example, the, the site that we talked about earlier, uh, one of the main objectives was to increase fan engagement. Uh, for golf fans, uh, and golf enthusiasts. That's really hard to measure, uh, really hard to measure. And, uh, so we, uh, came up with, uh, quite a few pieces of functionality that we believed would drive fan engagement and then proved it through user testing, uh, proved it through [00:17:00] stakeholder interviews.

Uh, and while we couldn't actually put. Firm KPIs together about how it was driving fan engagement. We got feedback, we proved our hypothesis, and then we put it in action. And sometimes that's good enough.

[00:17:13] Galen Low: I love that. It also defines scope too. It's like, okay, what is our metric that we're trying to hit?

And let's build scope in that helps us measure that so that we know, you know, and test the

[00:17:23] Pam Butkowski: crap out of it.

[00:17:26] Galen Low: Yes, yes, indeed, uh, your angle, because, you know, I think you've kind of moved out of agency land, but is sort of your background now you're kind of, you know, as I understand it, in the executive boardroom, you know, working on sort of strategy delivery strategy execution realization, you know, call it what you will.

Yeah.

Let me put my consulting thesaurus away. Um, how about you? How who's kind [00:18:00] of responsible for sort of defining these success metrics, making them measurable and you know who gets held accountable in the types of projects and maybe even just some examples of projects that you are sort of at the helm of or involved in.

[00:18:11] Stephanie Best: Sure. That's the easiest question in the world. Not, um, no, um, but I really love that Pam and I are from very different backgrounds and we have different ways of answering this question. Uh, the way that Pam has answered this question just makes so much sense. Like that's exactly the answer. If I were to choose an agency to work with, to develop, develop a product, that's, that's a lot of what I'd want to hear is like tailored metrics to your needs, and we have some other sort of metrics that help us make sense as a business, but we are client oriented.

Right. And that's fabulous. Um, my answer is going to be different, of course. Um, Because I'm looking inside of a company now these days, rather than, uh, in the market with a variety of different clients, like growing other brands, I'm looking to improve the, uh, project efficiency of an organization and enhance their operations.

So, uh, who's responsible? Um, I'd say [00:19:00] that leaders are responsible for, for designing, um, strategy effectively and clearly delegating duties that support the strategy and collecting feedback. And then for project managers, I would say they are responsible for insight and feedback of what works and what doesn't and ensuring that they deliver within the expectations of stakeholders.

Right? So it's a very different beast that you're dealing with. Um, the Roy is a business printed metric. However, it may not always feel relevant to an agency producing a web project for a client. Um, the client is responsible, though, for seeking initiatives that support their strategies for Roy, et cetera, or greater fan engagement, et cetera.

Um, and the agency itself is responsible for satisfying the client and driving their own raving fans. Um, but for metrics inside of like a business project, you would probably want to see that people are more fluidly able to complete their tasks, um, that your project velocity perhaps has increased. Uh, people have a more, a deeper sense of meaning attached to the strategic goals [00:20:00] of the company.

So you might see the, uh, attrition levels decrease over time. And then you would see client satisfaction scores, hopefully over the year. Course of a year. So a bit latent increase as well. So that's what we saw with one of my last clients and doing a sales model optimization project where we went in and essentially mapped current state.

So what's working, what's not, um, and then created projects to elevate the current state. Yeah, long answer.

[00:20:28] Galen Low: No, I think that was great. I mean, there was a lot. It was a lot packed in there. I wanted to come back. I'm coming back to the thing you said, you said, um, you know, kind of setting the direction and getting feedback like from that sort of leadership team.

And later you had mentioned this sort of like buy in to the broader strategic objectives at like various levels of an organization. And I'm like, how does that, how do we, how do you make that happen? Because I agree with it, right. In the sense that like, yeah, we're looking to like, operate efficiently towards our goals.

And then that means people have to know what their goals are. And then also it means [00:21:00] that if something's not working, leadership needs to find out about it before the end of the project.

[00:21:09] Stephanie Best: It's really important, like in a large enterprise, it becomes more convoluted and a small to medium enterprise is a little bit more tangible, right? Um, it depends on how hungry companies are for strategic planning and then sharing that clarity, uh, with the rest of the company and then how effective they can, they can delegate that to people on the floor.

Like, uh, you know. Uh, their leadership, their, their VPs, their directors and their managers, you know, and so throughout the hierarchy, how do they really manage value? Because are you just producing work throughout a hierarchy? Is it a tangle entanglement of approvals or are you actually producing work based on the value stream in a company, which is the whole other can of worms.

However, it is really about, um, change in a company and leadership strategy.

[00:21:57] Galen Low: I like that. It kind of brings brings about this sort of notion. [00:22:00] I alluded to it at the beginning, this sort of project economy. Um, and part of the reasons why project management is so important right now is because, you know, Organizations, uh, you know, need to change and transform quickly. Right. I've started trying to not use the word transform so much 'cause I, I feel it's getting buzzy, but it, it does describe what needs to happen, right?

It's like, it does, we're not just doing business as usual and we're not going along a straight line in order to stay competitive in order to kind of realize the value that we need to, you know, to be seeing our strategy manifest. It needs to kind of arc, um, and it only works if, to your point, it, you know, we address what's not working, um, and that we can kind of deliver efficiently.

[00:22:39] Stephanie Best: Yeah, I, I absolutely agree. The, the goal of these projects is to become more efficient and more effective, right? So if you can accomplish that, and if you can find different ways to measure that for organizations, that's a huge win.

[00:22:51] Galen Low: What I, um, what I love about both of your answers is that, you know, like there's, you know, There's lanes.

Do you know what I mean? Like, um, I, I think [00:23:00] I came into this and, you know, even, uh, even, you know, years before this, that sort of notion of a strategic project manager, like there's this vague cloud that somewhere leads to like, Project manager as CEO. And it's like, it's not exactly that. It's not like you're going to like suddenly leave this webinar and then, you know, be at the table with the C suite as a project manager, or even as, you know, VP of operations necessarily like setting the strategy, um, and being accountable for that strategy and the strategy, like the delivery thereof.

But there is this correlation between, um, you know, having clear, measurable, visible goals, Set from the top and then also using that to sort of ladder into clear measurable goals and or objectives that relate to that that are kind of more within the realm of, you know, um, the sort of non exec folks doing the work.

And there has to be that sort of, yeah, that conversation or that translation. [00:24:00] I'm curious, kind of from both angles. Um, because, you know, assuming that, yes, the sort of project success metrics, um, Are related to knowing what the sort of broader business objectives are like, how, how do you each go about defining meaningful project success metrics?

Uh, you know, while staying in your lane, I guess, right. Um, and how do you kind of know enough? How do you learn enough to know how to set those, you know, KPIs that are achievable, that are measurable, that are sort of within your grasp. Um, I I'll flip it again and start with Stephanie.

[00:24:37] Stephanie Best: Yeah, that's great.

Yeah. And I love that. And I'll just quick sidebar. Um, if, uh, if a project manager is dreaming of becoming CEO one day, a hot tip is to focus on, uh, the strategy and the value towards the organization. So if they can start to speak the language of leadership and pivot into new pathways, then I found fun.

Myself getting promoted doing that. Um, and I think [00:25:00] that might be effective for other folks if they're interested. Um, but I agree with that. Yeah,

[00:25:05] Pam Butkowski: I think that's really important. Sorry. I didn't mean to cut you off. I think that's really, really important. Uh, and a really good piece of advice. Um, it's and even just to take it one step further.

Uh, and make it a little bit more tactical. Like we talked a lot about the Iron Triangle, the organization doesn't care about the Iron Triangle. The organization cares about the benefits that you achieving the Iron Triangle brings to the org. And so understanding how, uh, every, like the decisions that you make as a project manager positively impact your organization.

And like, if I deliver it on time, that means. Uh, I free up resources to take on other initiatives quicker. I, right, like all of these other things that come on, uh, come into play if you do your job, understanding how that connects is exactly what Stephanie's talking about.

[00:25:51] Stephanie Best: Thank you for reiterating that.

That was wonderful because you touched on effectiveness and efficiency for the organization in someone's role. If they can drive that, that's driving value. [00:26:00] I love that. Um, I

[00:26:01] Pam Butkowski: love this conversation. Great

[00:26:04] Stephanie Best: conversation. But back to Galen. Okay, so, um, that was really insightful. And just for the interest of Galen's question or Galen Tomato Lowe.

Um, so how do we define meaningful project success metrics? So, I think, um, relevancy and value are the backbone driving meaningful metrics. So examples outside of the triangle, like because we do, the triangle serves a purpose, right? It helps us mitigate risk, it gives us a sense of control, and it also helps us balance out something that could be profitable, right?

So it does have its place, um, but things that maybe are outside of that maybe are strategic alignments. So will the project move the needle in terms of strategic objectives? Um, so success isn't just completing a project within constraints, but whether it's delivering a tangible value and that's goes back to that charter, you know, does it drive, uh, engagement, uh, raving [00:27:00] fans, sales, uh, is it a brand moment, et cetera, you know, just trying to speak some agency language here, uh, next is agility.

So did the team adapt to the changing needs or the timelines or market shifts? Are they keeping their finger on the pulse, right? If you're designing an agile project and you're working in sprints. That's a great opportunity to manage risk and stay relevant. Even if it changes a little bit from what you thought your end target would be, the end target is always going to have to be value and what the client is going to benefit the most from.

And then, um, that brings us to value delivery. So, in agency projects, for the real measure of success lies in the value delivered to stakeholders, right? So, and if they feel that it's valuable, they'll want to return, right? Um, and, um, And then, of course, there's all these other vanity metrics, so I'm going to flip it over to Pam because I feel like I keep getting these lovely long answers.

[00:27:52] Pam Butkowski: You're good. We've got 60 minutes to fill and two, like, take half, buddy. [00:28:00] No, I, again, I think you're spot on here. Um, the, uh, I think the, the, where we always start and I like to start with why are we spending money on this? Why is our client spending X number of dollars on this thing? Uh, it's got to be really important to you if they're spending four million dollars to do this, why?

And then start breaking it down. How can I help them achieve the value that they are trying, to your point about value delivery, how can I help them on the ground achieve the value that they're hoping to get out of this? Uh, And I think you, you touched on, um, you touched on like different stakeholders as well.

I think understanding what is important to each of your main stakeholders and coming up with specific KPIs wherever possible for each of them. That's something that you as a project manager can influence. immediately, uh, right out of the gate, right? And I find, um, I find, I, I touched on this a little bit earlier, I find project charters invaluable in doing that.[00:29:00]

Uh, because just the act of making a charter with your client forces you to talk about what you care about. Uh, it forces your clients to, you're going to find out just in putting together that document. I really care about impressing my boss. I really care about saving the company money. I really care about my next promotion.

Um, I really care about taking care of my team and making sure they look good. Uh, and then you know how to show up every day, right? Those are some of the things that as project managers, you can help, uh, you can help impact for your clients to help them achieve their, uh, their success objectives.

[00:29:35] Galen Low: That was the best sell for a project charter I've heard in my entire career.

You

[00:29:39] Stephanie Best: know what? I will die on this. Let's make that a clip and put it everywhere, okay? You don't want to do a project charter? Here's the reason. Here's Pam.

[00:29:48] Galen Low: Pam on project

[00:29:49] Stephanie Best: charters. Okay, one step further.

[00:29:50] Pam Butkowski: Also, team charter. Uh, because, uh, let's find out for each of the team members that you're working with who are actually delivering the [00:30:00] product.

What is this going to benefit for them? Like, what are they trying to get out of it? I want to learn a new technology. I want to, uh, figure out how to use these new innovative tools that we're using, uh, and then build a plan around it. Like, everyone can grow a little bit more. Meaningful work

[00:30:17] Stephanie Best: here. And just to comment, cause I love that so much team charter.

I remember every single one of my agency projects. Um, I would take people who like work together, maybe like yesterday or like 57 times, and I would sit down with them in the room and then I'd say, okay, everybody, this is a different project that, you know, like, Yes, you know, all these faces, but do you really know what they do?

And do you really know what still matters to them? So we did a round table, clarifying what we're going to do, like what, what we're going to deliver on this project, what we feel our role is, what we need in return. We need to see from our team and then also why it's important to us. And I found that builds high performing teams because people like, Oh, I actually didn't really realize you were a copywriter or you do design as well.

Or, Oh, you're like an advanced coder for all of [00:31:00] these things. Right. And so it's just, it opened up so many lanes of communication. So Pam, I love your answer. Like the team charter is that is, that is a way to succeed. And

[00:31:12] Pam Butkowski: it's, it's so important to, especially on the, God, I'm just going to keep talking about this on the agency side.

Like we do, we do everything for our clients. And so anytime we can take an opportunity to do something for ourselves as well, uh, help our teams come together a little bit more, like do something that helps push their careers forward a little bit more. Uh, let's do it.

[00:31:31] Stephanie Best: Yeah, absolutely.

[00:31:33] Galen Low: I love that. You

[00:31:33] Stephanie Best: want to have a strong, stable company, right?

Repeat. Yeah, and work with people who deliver great things and love being there. Like, I don't think there's any better situation.

[00:31:42] Pam Butkowski: Yes, and let's have a little fun. Like, what we do is really hard. Let's, let's make it, let's make it fun. Can

[00:31:48] Galen Low: I say that was the most, like, A, on, on theme and on brand. Because fun, right?

It's the serious fun that we're having. But. Like that is the, like, it's such a crystal clear, um, [00:32:00] simplification is what I want to say, but distillation is what I mean at distillation of what we're trying to do with sometimes complicated, you know, goals coming from the executive office. But fundamentally it's like viable business.

We want to keep doing it. How can we keep doing it? Well, we can't stay put. We have to do these things. And then everyone can care about that in their own way, but it does create this, um, This sort of laddering effect. And I'm like, I'm not the guy to talk to you about levers and drivers and OKRs and all that stuff.

But you can see this like sort of basic relationship with, Hey, we want to keep doing what we're doing and we need to find a reason to care. Why should I care about this? Why does it matter to me? I'm going to do my best work if I know, but someone needs to tell me what it is we're trying to do. And then somebody to help me maybe like kind of put that into something that I can remember every time I'm showing up to this project and that's going to sort of deliver impact.

[00:32:52] Stephanie Best: And that is a great example of how to tie someone's role to strategy, you know, whether it's a project or, or the business. [00:33:00] And that drives meaningful work. Yeah.

[00:33:03] Pam Butkowski: Yeah, we actually, um, just went through, it's a little bit off topic now, but I feel like on topic, I feel like we've gotten off topic. Um, So I'll just keep going.

Uh, you know, I, just a little bit of spoiler alert if anyone from my team is listening. Um, because we're going to roll this out on Thursday. Uh, we actually went through this exercise, my delivery leads and I, um, to talk through, we've, we've seen like project managers in general like focus on the weeds, right?

Uh, very tactical, jumping right to I need a raid log, I need a deliverables tracker, I need, right? Right. Um, and, and talk about the, the tactical things we are doing. Instead of why they matter. Uh, and so we just had this conversation and I literally pushed back and said to my team, why do we exist? Uh, why, why do project managers exist in this organization?

And we even jumped right to tactical as well to mitigate risk. But why? [00:34:00] So that we don't get surprised by things, but why? And we ended up distilling it. Thank you for the word earlier. Uh, down to five things. We said we exist to quarterback and lead the team. I'm reading off my other thing, provide value to our clients and help them achieve their goals.

Be the source of truth, eliminate swirl and protect the agency. And everything we do feeds into those five things. And so we've actually built out our own personal kind of project management KPIs and our success metrics around those five things. Uh, And they don't necessarily pertain to like what we are delivering as an agency.

It pertains more to the value that we are delivering for our clients through the things that we do as project managers every day.

[00:34:41] Stephanie Best: I can feel the passion from you coming through all of that. Like that is so incredible. And like, that's awesome. And I guess the

[00:34:48] Pam Butkowski: nerdiest passion. I know. And it's

[00:34:51] Stephanie Best: like, well, that is this community right here.

Like, if you're going to like be a passionate nerd about project management, you are in the right place right now. Right,

[00:34:59] Pam Butkowski: right. [00:35:00] I don't have hobbies. I just PM,

[00:35:02] Stephanie Best: then that should be on a coffee mug. You should do that. And like, I love your start with why that reminds me of this. It's probably 14 or 15 years ago now that Simon Sinek published this, but it's his start with why, like we'd probably all seen it, but it's, there is so much packed in there and you.

You can do that in your strategic planning, you're defining your identity as your organization, and also defining like, just like your roles and responsibilities. Like that's a really great way to contextualize that. That's really good.

[00:35:30] Galen Low: That's solid. And I like that in there, especially from the agency's perspective, there is not only just protect the agency, but also help our clients achieve their goals, which also fundamentally means you need to understand what their goals are if you're going to do your job as a project manager, if you're working for PAM.

I really like that. I do think we can kind of dive into that a little bit as well, but I wanted to, um, I wanted to get to one thing that, [00:36:00] um, you know, is, well, I want to get into some of the tough stuff first. We were talking about, uh, both of you have mentioned sort of like realizing value over time, um, and I imagine that there's some folks in the audience and also me, um, where they, you know, we have projects, like, I definitely have projects from my past that are still generating their return on investment to this very day.

Um, I've moved on long ago, you know, decades ago. Okay, a decade ago. I'm dating myself now. I think there's this sort of, you know, latent impact that project managers aren't always around to see. Um, and I'm wondering if people are wondering as well, like, how do you measure latent impact that happens long after you as the project manager have moved on to other projects?

Can you? Do you? Like, what's, what is something that can tie a project manager to like, longer term impact? Not just, we launched. It was pretty good, at least for the first 30 days. And then I like shifted on.

[00:36:59] Stephanie Best: Yeah. [00:37:00] Whose button is it?

[00:37:03] Galen Low: Uh, I think it's from the PM nerd, Bukowski.

[00:37:07] Pam Butkowski: Now I feel like I'm talking a lot.

So this is

[00:37:10] Stephanie Best: a valuable conversation. I love it.

[00:37:12] Pam Butkowski: Yeah. Um, so I mentioned earlier that, uh, like in, in agency land, one of the most important things, uh, To us is to make sure the projects aren't one and done, uh, that we're continuing to work with clients. And so, uh, I think, uh, the sorry, I'm like trying to remember what the exact question was.

What was it about? Oh, how do you measure latent impact? Uh, yes. So, uh, We like to, we like to put into practice, even if it is a one and done project. Um, we, we want to make sure that we understand where the product can go long term, right? Where can it go next? What does this thing look like in six months, a year, two years, five years from now?

Um, obviously we don't want to leave our clients with something that they need to, you know, [00:38:00] tear down and rebuild five years from now. We want it to continue to grow and provide them with something quality and stable that is going to serve them for a long time. Uh, and so having a vision in our heads about what it should look like a year from now, two years from now, even if we aren't doing work.

Even if we've set up our clients to own the product and continue to build it on their own, having something to look back at it and say, did it achieve what we wanted it to do three years from now? Uh, did they build this big piece of functionality that we said would revolutionize their industry? Uh, yes.

Cool. Um, and in some cases, Is it doing what it was in like what it was created to do? Uh, sometimes it's not cool big sexy innovative stuff that we're doing Sometimes they need a way to manage like our clients need a way to manage a lot of content in an easy way Uh, if I go back and look at uh a marketing site that was created with that Uh goal in mind like if I look at it a year later and the [00:39:00] content is still easy to understand We did it like it is still paying off.

[00:39:06] Stephanie Best: I agree. I agree

[00:39:09] Galen Low: I, you know what I really love about that is because so many people come to me and they struggle because they're trying to put together their CV or their portfolio. And they're like, I don't know what percent we increased traffic by. I wasn't there for that measurement. And like, to your point, you're like, well, you know, is the thing still happening or are they still managing their own content?

You know, if that's true, then it's

[00:39:29] Pam Butkowski: still do what we wanted it to do.

[00:39:31] Galen Low: Yeah.

[00:39:32] Pam Butkowski: And again, back to our, all of our points earlier, like understanding the why, why did we even do it in the first place?

[00:39:37] Galen Low: Mm hmm.

[00:39:38] Pam Butkowski: It isn't just to increase. Like click throughs by whatever percent. Um, there are bigger goals than that.

And so understanding why your clients or why your organization is spending the money that they're spending on the thing that you're building is important.

[00:39:53] Galen Low: That comes back to what Stephanie said, right? Speaking the language of strategy, not the language of click through rates. Um, you know, I, [00:40:00] I, I, yeah, I mean, you could, you could also speak the language of click through rates, but yeah, the bigger,

[00:40:06] Stephanie Best: the bigger conversation now.

And also I'm gonna speak the language of click through rates.

[00:40:13] Galen Low: Boom. Okay, so, so far we've produced two mugs. Two mugs. With two different

[00:40:18] Stephanie Best: names. Yeah, we have yet to give Stephanie a

[00:40:21] Galen Low: joke name. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I wonder if I could land out, before we open it up to questions, not, I'm not wrapping up the session, but my last question, I guess, um, except with the exception of one that I'll sneak in at the end, uh, I think my last question, the tough question, you know, the devil's advocate question is, okay, that's all fine and good.

Value, goals, caring, uh, keeping doing a thing, you Um, but what about this iron triangle? Is it okay, then, to not hit the iron triangle if you hit success? Ooh, [00:41:00] juicy. Um, I don't know, whoever wants to take that one first. Or both at the same time.

[00:41:06] Stephanie Best: Go for it. Alright. So is it okay to not hit the iron triangle?

Um, like I think 15 years ago, Stephanie as a project manager would just freak out at this question. Um, but you know, that's what time does. Um, I think that the answer is up to the customer. So if the customer values other elements of success more than the iron triangle. Then you have a happy customer and the iron triangle does have its place.

You know, as we say, like giving people a sense of control over just those quick checks on a project and also mitigating risk, um, but if you see value in metrics for success outside of the iron triangle and, and maybe the client doesn't, then I think it's always worth having a conversation to find a happy middle and go back again to that, why was that vision?

And what's that purpose understanding that we don't have unlimited time and money and features, right? But it does come back to just thinking, [00:42:00] okay, well, what is what, how does the customer define success and how can we deliver that for them? Like, does it make sense? Do we need a strategic partner or are we equipped?

Um, so I think that it is okay, ultimately not the iron triangle. There's so many other things that I feel we've, we've really well covered in this conversation that just speak to value and, and driving growth in an organization, driving success for clients. And to get too focused on the iron triangle, you could actually just lose value and that could be more costly.

That's my answer.

[00:42:33] Galen Low: Boom. I love that. I also like what you said about resources are finite. Like, the fundamental reason the sort of Iron Triangle exists is because you might run out of time for people or money, you know? And then, like, it's no good. If you spent all your time, you know, on the one goal of a project and only got to step one of 19 and then ran out of money, like, that's still not good either.

[00:42:59] Stephanie Best: Like, [00:43:00] yeah, that's where you have to be very careful with your sprint planning, if you're doing an agile. And that's where you get the biggest risk. I'm just going to go off on a tangent with just pure waterfall. Like I think any industry could benefit from high, at least hybrid, uh, project management, because if you just do like a pure waterfall project, it is a year long project and you're like, that's the target a year, and we're going to work in silos and deliver each of our components to the next team, um, you will probably 70 percent of the time, miss your mark.

You will

[00:43:29] Pam Butkowski: never deliver it.

[00:43:31] Stephanie Best: Yeah, yeah, you'll never deliver it. You know, it's just, Pam's just going to be forthright. It's just like, you try to plan every little detail. Stephanie's so nice. I'm like, you will fail. It's going to fail. An experienced person will know that you just, you don't want to manage a project that way.

Right? And you don't want to just like, feel like you can create this imaginary uh, predictive glass ball um, full of beautiful iron pieces. Triangles, right? It doesn't exist. So

[00:43:57] Galen Low: the Christmas tournament right there, [00:44:00]

[00:44:00] Stephanie Best: we're productizing this conversation, merch,

[00:44:01] Galen Low: this is just the merch ideation session.

Actually on the agency side, it's like, it's very real, right? Because you have a contract that says you have this much resource to do a thing. Um, and You know, if you want more, then you have to ask for more. It's not just, you know, we can't just slide it under, uh, you know, under the rug in terms of like, yes, executive team, we delivered that project very, very well.

You really do need to like, like report on the resources, et cetera, et cetera. Um, you know, you and the team, you manage how, how important is it still to, uh, hit the iron triangle, um, or not hit the, is there, is there a world where you can not hit the iron triangle? somehow hit the success and that would be okay.

[00:44:46] Pam Butkowski: There's definitely that world. Um, so many things to say, I gotta organize my thoughts. Um, so the iron triangle is very real, uh, especially in agency land. Um, that said, [00:45:00] nobody says that the sides of the triangle all have to be the same length. And nobody said that the sides of the triangle can't change lengths.

while you are delivering. Um, the timeline can change and the budget can change so that everything can kind of like expand a little bit. Everything can contract a little bit. One side can contract a little bit. Like, it can change. I think evolving your management of the triangle while your goals and while the project is evolving is important.

Um, I couldn't remember any of those words. I was, I was, the only one I could remember was right triangle. And I was like, that's not, What you're going for. So I just went with it. Um, I just said that. You know what? Math is not my strong suit. So, uh, we have spreadsheets for math. Okay. I don't need geometry anymore.

Um, right, right. Excel has got me. Um, so, uh, I do think that there is a [00:46:00] world, however. Where you can break the triangle and still call the project successful as long as, so Stephanie, I agree with everything that you said, and as long as people know you're doing it. Um, right. If you're blowing your budget out of the water, if you're trending over your timeline, if you are needing to cut some of your scope in order to hit the other two sides of the triangle.

You gotta talk about it. Um, you have to make sure leadership knows you have to make sure that you're calling it out before you, you break that side of the triangle. You have to make sure that people are informed and that you have a plan for what happens after you decide to break the triangle. Making those decisions in a silo or even worse, not knowing that you're about to break a side of the triangle, that's, that is bad.

That is not success. Um, intentionally deciding that you need to break your iron triangle in order to provide more value, in order to sell in more work, in order to build a longer lasting relationship with your client, in order to, [00:47:00] Create a case study that's gonna win us more work in that industry in the future.

Like, the reasoning behind why you are breaking the triangle is more important than the fact that you're breaking it in the first place.

[00:47:11] Stephanie Best: What a fabulous answer. Galen, I'm going to stop you here just because I love the way that you described, um, this really creative and visual way of just having this very flexible, agile triangle that's still a triangle, um, but it could be a dolly triangle, you know, it could be anything, you know, and, and, and so important because you're considering the triangle and the ecosystem that it exists within, you know, factors trying to mitigate risk, trying to communicate the status quo, The status of the triangle, uh, within that ecosystem to ensure the health and satisfaction of, uh, the company and the client.

Love it.

[00:47:44] Pam Butkowski: You know, I think I've done enough of these with you guys, and I think I do this every time I give my iron triangle spiel, I don't know how I keep ending up in this place where I run through my own script every time, but here I am, uh, [00:48:00] here, here's my spiel on, on the iron triangle. Love it. Um, whenever we, and this is part of, like, I've told my team about this, this is just a part of our process.

Uh, when we kick off a project. Whether it's with a new client, with a client we've been working with for years, doesn't matter. Every time we kick off a project, we sit down in the kickoff meeting, and I make the client prioritize the iron triangle. Uh, I make them say, this is the most important side to me, this is the second most important, and this is the least important.

And then I tell them, thank you for doing that. I own number three. You don't have control over number three, I do. I'll tell you what I'm doing with it, but in order to deliver one and two for you, I have to own the third side, so that I can flex like this. Uh, And, like, it sets expectations right up front that, like, I can't give you all three.

Uh, I can give you two. I promise.

[00:48:54] Galen Low: I love that. All of this is just like, you know, the reality and Pam, like you're framing me from the agency side and just [00:49:00] because you're Pam, like this whole notion, like it is about money and it's about resources. It's, you know, there's a transactional thing. Like, why are we spending money on this thing?

It's not finite. Time is not finite, but we can use this triangle as a way to have a conversation, you know, as a way to educate and manage expectations. Um, not because it's fixed, but because it's not fixed so that we can have the conversation to be like, to hit your goal, we need to. Play with the triangle a little bit.

What do you wanna do? Yes. Um, and I think Stephanie, it shouldn't be a surprise.

[00:49:28] Pam Butkowski: Yeah. Stephanie hit the nail on the head earlier when she said that the sides of the triangle are finite. Mm mm-Hmm. , um, like they, they can't go on forever. And so you have to have a mechanism or a lever to pull to, to make sure that you're managing two the finite sides.

One of them has to flex. Mm-Hmm. . Yeah.

[00:49:43] Galen Low: Boom. How many times am

[00:49:45] Pam Butkowski: I going to do this movement?

[00:49:47] Galen Low: I think we're going to end with that dance. Everyone has to put the camera on and we just do this for a while. Uh, no, I, I should probably mind the time. I know we've got about nine minutes left. Um, we are going to get to some Q and A.

[00:50:00] Um, I also know that some folks are going to need to start peeling away to their next meeting. Uh, and if that is you, I just wanted to say a big thank you for joining us today. And also if you are loving this, then we'd love to see you at our next event, which is a lightning talk. From Code and Theory, Director of Program Management, Lauren Selley, on finding balance within an ambitious agency career.

You can RSVP using the link that Michael has just posted in the chat. Yeah, I saw it. Um, And, uh, yeah, actually for that particular event for our DPM members, we're also going to be doing a followup interactive lightning talk slash fire. Uh, sorry, we're going to be doing a fireside chat and interactive fireside chat with Lauren.

You can actually just chat directly with her afterwards. Um, and if you're a guest today and you want to continue the discussion by becoming a member of our community, check us out at the digital project manager. com slash membership. Okay, um, I'm gonna go into Q& A time, uh, and I've got a couple questions here, uh, and I've got a question from one of our members, uh, and, [00:51:00] ooh, it's a juicy one.

Here's the question. The question is, If our team isn't KPI driven, how can we get the right people in the room to determine the KPIs? Oh,

[00:51:12] Stephanie Best: well, why isn't the team KPI driven in the first place and what what do they value in terms of KPIs? Like what's the purpose and then, yeah, that's, that'd be my first question is understanding that what is the root cause of that.

And then if you're looking for the right people, I think determining what is valuable and important to you and what problems are trying to solve and what value you're trying to drive will inform the type of KPIs, which is a Google away once you have the first answer, you know, so I don't know. Maybe it's not.

[00:51:50] Galen Low: No, I like that. It's like the importance of measurability, right? Because that's kind of like, uh, you know, and, uh, that's what I'm garnering from the question is that it's like, it's kind of like we don't set [00:52:00] goals or measure things. And I'm like, it's probably going to be a problem for me to measure success.

So yeah, I agree. It kind of needs to start, you know, with a bit of an education piece. I don't know. Yeah.

[00:52:11] Pam Butkowski: Yeah. Yeah, I agree with that. I agree with that.

[00:52:16] Galen Low: We can, uh, feel free to ask follow on questions, um, person who asks questions. Because I think that's juicy as well. Um, uh, I'm gonna move to the next question.

Which is as follows. Next question is in organizations that have both team leads and project managers, is it still the project manager's responsibility to create opportunities for team members to grow? Oh, I love this question. Pam, I think you have thoughts.

[00:52:48] Pam Butkowski: Yes, is the answer. Um, yes, no, you know what? Uh, Project manager, like we have the word manager in our title for a reason.

[00:53:00] Uh, you are leaders by nature. Um, it doesn't need to be in HR management for you to give a shit about the people you're working with. Uh, I think that's just being a part of a team. I don't think that it's even just solely falling on the project manager. We should all just be looking out for each other.

Um, and again, like, let's just plug the charter one more time. Shall we, uh, doing the team charter upfront and understanding what people want to do, what they want to take on, what they're excited about, like what they're hoping that that project does for their careers. Like you are in a seat as the calling the shots and building the plan.

You're in, in a place and in a seat where you can give them those opportunities. Um, if you've got, uh, a content author who's really passionate about getting into QA, let them! Build them in the plan. Uh, have them shadow your QA team. Of course, again, communicate. Make sure that you're talking to their manager and that the things that you're doing on the project, uh, fit into their overall goals and, and where they want to go, [00:54:00] uh, in their career at the, at the organization.

But yes, help them! so much. They will do the same for you.

[00:54:07] Stephanie Best: I love that answer. Yeah. And if I could add a little bit more to it is, even if you don't hold the carrots to promote them directly or change their function in the organization, you can still open up communication channels. You can encourage them.

You can let them shadow. Trial and error and then give really good feedback about someone who's really curious and wants to try something new because it helps them navigate those conversations and kind of have like a bit more of a leg to stand on when they're talking to their manager saying, yes, I love coffee, but I would really love to QA.

I want to try this for a bit. Yeah. I agree with that.

[00:54:39] Galen Low: Super cool. Um, I, I have, uh, this question that, um, actually ties into another question that I see in, in, in the chat, which is, um, uh, Pam, could you please restate and maybe elaborate a bit more on those five reasons why your PM team exists? [00:55:00]

[00:55:01] Pam Butkowski: Heck yes. Um, okay.

So the five things were her, her, uh, quarterback. And lead your team, uh, provide value to our clients and, uh, help them achieve their goals, uh, be the source of truth, eliminate swirl and protect the agency. Um, so we actually took those we're calling it our North star. We took those, uh, five points of the star and then took them to tactics.

And then tools. Uh, so, in, uh, I'm literally looking at my deck right now. Uh, under leading the team. Uh, one of the expectations in there would be to uh, call the plays. We got real sports y on this one. Uh, call the plays. So how you do that, uh, you need to know the needed next step, get clarity. If you don't know what's needed, uh, ensure that those are responsible for executing know what is expected of them, uh, work with other leads [00:56:00] across the agency to be able to direct your project team, uh, if they are unclear so that they can manage their own teams as well, uh, right.

That's kind of the, the expectation. And then in order to do that, we have a clear project plan and now we're getting into the tactical. the things that we started with. Remember when I said we all said we, we make project plans. That's a tool that we use in order to Call the shots, uh, and call the place, uh, project plans are staffing and resourcing plans, uh, clear what's on deck for each week so that every team member knows what, what's expected of them for the week, uh, running really clear and succinct standups, right?

Um, so we, we went through that for each of the five points of our North star, uh, so that the tools ladder up to why does it matter?

[00:56:45] Galen Low: Tools that help us call the place.

[00:56:49] Stephanie Best: Love it. It is like a sport. Like, a company is not a family. It is a sports team.

[00:56:55] Pam Butkowski: That's right. I, you know, it's funny because, uh, I've got three delivery [00:57:00] leads, uh, who helped put this together with me.

Uh, and two of them were like, I, I don't sports ball. Like somebody else has to take this one.

[00:57:10] Stephanie Best: Oh my gosh.

[00:57:12] Galen Low: It's me. It's totally me. That's awesome. Um, I think we might have time for one question, which is a bit of a can of worms. So I think let's just answer it until we run out of time and then I'll cut you all off.

Now, uh, we'll, it's juicy. The question is, what, what is your opinion about OKRs? Like General . Yeah. Adam, Adam to soup. Yeah. Like,

[00:57:41] Stephanie Best: I think they're important for strategy, you know, like they, they truly have a lot of value there, like, um, objectives and key results. Um, I think that that should inform, like your strategy as a company, your role as an individual.

Projects that you do. Um, in general, I think they add value. [00:58:00] Um, but I don't think they really determine necessarily what you're producing. Um, I think that they're just supporting pillars for success.

[00:58:10] Pam Butkowski: I agree with that. I think they're very they're very important to ensure that you're moving in the right direction.

Um, I, I don't think, I, I agree with you completely. I think that, um, like when you're making day to day decisions, you should make sure that you're, they, they work in favor of any OKRs that you're working against, but, uh, they're meant to be directional. They're meant to be, like, you're spot on when you said, uh, they're needed for, overall strategy.

Absolutely. Um, I develop OKRs for my practice as a whole. Uh, we don't do them on an individual project basis. Um, but for the project management team at Hero, we have OKRs, uh, to make sure that the things that we're doing, the North Star, fits into what we're trying to achieve. More

[00:58:53] Stephanie Best: internally facing rather than externally, but yeah, and the work that you accept, um, maybe support some [00:59:00] of those internally facing.

Okay. Ours, you know, and or maybe the work that you reject, you never know. Um, but yeah, and then ultimately, when you accept something, it should just kind of fit into the natural flow of the work. So, when people are falling in line with their roles and responsibilities, they know that a project, okay, this is who we are as an organization is our strategy and we know what we're delivering for this project.

It's a win win scenario. So knowing who you are and what you can do and then how you drive value, right? Um, and the OKR is kind of in the background behind all of that.

[00:59:30] Galen Low: Gosh, that was a whole can of worms in like two minutes. Congratulations, panelists. Um, that does take us to time. I know some folks have already left to their next meeting.

Uh, thank you in a sense. Yeah. Um, but, uh, I just wanted to say, uh, thanks for being here. Thank you. Panelists. Thank you. Attendees. Please take a second to fill out the feedback survey that we just posted in the chat, a couple of messages up, let us know what you thought of today's session, and maybe even just submit a topic that you'd like to see us cover in the future.

Um, thank you again, Pam. Thank you, Stephanie. Uh, so many gold gems. There's so much [01:00:00] merch that we made. Uh, so much fun that we had. This is what we're all about. Um, thank you so much for sharing your expertise with us today. Um, and I think I should probably just let everyone go. So. Thank you again. Have a great rest of your whatever day of the week it is.

I think it's Tuesday. It's just been one of those weeks. Um, and we'll see you all at the next one. Yes. I had a one in seven chance of getting it right. So I think that's pretty good. Good

[01:00:26] Stephanie Best: job. Thank you too. Thank you very much, everyone.