How to Use Your PM Skills to Negotiate a Raise in 2025
You’ve probably heard the advice: “If you want a raise, get a new job.”
But in today’s market, that strategy just isn’t paying off like it used to.
According to our just-released 2025 Project Manager Salary Guide, most PMs aren’t planning to leave their roles this year. But they’re also not exactly thrilled with their current compensation (65% of respondents said they don’t think they’re paid fairly).
So what do you do when the job market’s uncertain, you know you’re delivering real value, but your paycheck doesn’t reflect it? You find ways to grow where you are and learn how to ask for what you deserve.
In this session, we’re digging into the art of negotiating a raise as a project manager. We’ll cover:
- Fresh data and insights from our 2025 Salary Guide
- Why the “just switch jobs” advice doesn’t hold up anymore
- How to quantify your impact as a project manager
- What to say (and how to say it) when asking for more money
- Smart ways to negotiate beyond salary (PTO, flexibility, title bumps, and more)
- Common blockers that can get in the way of a raise
- What to do when the answer is “not right now”
Bring your questions and your salary goals! We’ll bring the experts, advice, and data that will help you nail your next compensation conversation.
DPM – Everyone’s a PM Now: How to Prepare for the Future of PM
[00:00:00] Hey folks, welcome to our session on the importance of project management skills for everyone and how that impacts the future of project management as a discipline.
Galen Low: Uh, we do events like this once every month, sometimes more. Uh, and really it’s our way for our members and our VIP guests to engage directly with some of the experts who contribute to and collaborate with us here at the Digital project manager. Uh, for those who don’t know me, I’m Galen. I’m the co-founder of the Digital Project Manager.
I’ll be your host for today, for better or for worse. And I’ve got with me some of the top voices in project management today. I’ve got Crystal Richards, I’ve got Melissa Con Blackmore, and I’ve got James lut. Uh, we will be doing formal introductions shortly, but I thought first maybe we could just like lean into tradition.
So I was wondering if maybe you could just let us know in the chat maybe where you’re joining from. And maybe just like what your biggest work challenge has been lately. Uh, it doesn’t have to be a long description. Even just gimme like two words that sum it up. Maybe PMP exam, cram informal authority or maybe always being the one that makes brownies for the team.
And maybe you should just quit leading projects and open a bakery somewhere and maybe get painted Bitcoin. Okay, that was a little bit more than two words, but while you do that, um, I’m gonna be doing a little, a bit of housekeeping for today’s session. So I wanted to let you know that this session is being recorded and it will be available.
Uh, for our project management community and actually the, the broader public. Um, shortly afterwards, uh, we may use clips from it on our website and on our social channels. Your cameras and microphones are off by default, so you’re not gonna appear in the recording. Um, but we do love the chat. Yeah. Uh, so if, if you wanted to keep aside conversation, going in the chat, um, even if it’s not on topic, even if it’s got nothing to do with what the panelists and I are talking about, we don’t think that’s rude here.
It’s not gonna get captured in the recording. Uh, go nuts. Uh, we’re not the only experts in the room. You all are experts as well. We wanna hear from you. Uh, so please join that conversation, ask questions. Um, and speaking of questions, uh, just one last thing. We are gonna make some time at the end for questions from our DPM members and actually, and if you’ve popped a question into the q and a Michael o triage, that as well.
Um, so if you have a question, um, post it here. Uh, if you’re a member, post it in our live event, slack chat. Uh, Michael’s working in the background. He’s gonna put it all together and we are gonna make sure that we have time to get into the questions that you have. Um, and also. We do have a few VIP guests in the audience today, so if that’s you, welcome.
Um, this is just one of a series of monthly sessions we hold for our members who get access to a number of other benefits, including our entire backlog of session recordings, our library of templates, resources and mini courses, as well as our flagship certification course, mastering Digital Project Management.
You can join the fund by heading over to the digital project manager.com/membership. Alright, um, let’s dive in. Uh, today’s session is about the future of project management, not project managers. We’re, we’re gonna touch on that too, but more importantly, the emphasis being placed on the skill of project management.
In virtually every professional role these days and how to approach building that skill, whether you see yourself as a project manager or not. Uh, so maybe, maybe let’s, uh, let’s meet our [00:01:00] panelists. Um, who am I gonna pick on? Uh, I’m gonna pick on Crystal first. So first set, we’ve got Crystal Richards renowned project management coach and principal, uh, and owner at Minds Spark.
Uh, now Crystal, I see it in the background there. You have recently published your new book, PMP Exam, prep for Dummies. Um, and I know that it’s like one of those Iconic For Dummies, uh, series from Wiley. It’s a great franchise. Um, but I thought I’d ask in your mind, who is the dummy in PNP exam Prep for Dummies?
Crystal Richards: Uh, the authors of the seventh edition of the PMBOK guy.
Galen Low: Well, now that got spicy break.
Crystal Richards: I, I wrote it for them of like, here’s how to break it down. And prying language and for the rest of us. So yeah, I like that question.
Galen Low: You know, seventh Edition, very, uh,
Crystal Richards: you
Galen Low: know, notice I didn’t say an
Crystal Richards: organization, I just said them people.
Galen Low: I [00:02:00] love it. I love it. I’m so happy that that book exists. Um, yeah, uh, if y’all are interested, you can learn more. It’s an easy find. PNP exam, prep for Dummies. Congratulations on your book release.
Crystal Richards: Thank you.
Galen Low: Um, who to pick on next? Uh, maybe I’ll just go to Melissa. Melissa Con, Blackmore, chief project Officer at Powerhouse Project Manager, and the most followed pm creator on TikTok actually.
Um, and Melissa a few weeks back, you participated in a whole different kind of project as part of giving back day with the Humane Society of Tampa Bay. And as I understand it, um, there was a team of PMP wielding project professionals who volunteered to plan, market and host a fundraising event for shelter dogs.
Uh, what made you want to be a part of that, and are those dogs now equipped to lead projects as well?
Melissa Khan-Blackmore: Yes. So one of the things I speak often about is how powerful it is when we as project managers align our skills with our purpose. And when you use project management to do work, that actually means something to you, that’s where fulfillment kicks in.
[00:03:00] It’s where we find the most joy in our careers and where we’re able to make the most impact in the world. So if I get to give back to shelter dogs and use my project management brain, absolutely count me in. And to answer your question, yes, those dogs are officially trained in stakeholder management, especially if there’s treats involved.
Galen Low: We’re gonna retitle the event when we publish it. Everyone’s a project manager now. Even dogs. I love it. Uh, last but not least, uh, let’s go to James. James Looted, uh, founder and lead trainer at Impactful Project Management. And James, you, you’ve been described as Ireland’s top project management expert.
You’ve published a book called Leading Impactful Teams as a, uh, published book and an audio book, which is very fun to listen to by the way. Uh, you teach project management using Play-Doh and Balloon Animals, and now you’ve got COOs and CIOs from some big companies in Ireland and the UK inviting you up for drinks.
Uh, when you sit down with them, like what do they want to know? And also who foots the bill?
James Louttit: Yeah, it’s, uh, thanks for having me on Galen. Like, it’s, it’s really interesting. [00:04:00] The big problems are the same as the small problems, right? The big problems at the top level. How do I prioritize, how do I get the most outta my team?
How do I bring value? How do I reduce the stress on my team? Uh, so they’ve got the same problems that we have and, and finding language that works across both is really, is really good fun. Uh, and, uh, and I, like you say, I kind of bring some cartoons and stories and have a bit of fun with it. Um, in terms of who pays for the drinks, that depends.
Like, once we’re in the game, once we’re kind of in the company, there’s normally drinks there. Like, there’s normally like a lean coffee at the end, there’s beers, whatever on the way in. Like there’s a little dance that you do. Like, it’s kinda like, no, I’ll get this. No, I’ll get this. And it’s like, I don’t know.
And the Irish and English, uh, play on the thing is, is weird, but, uh, I’d say about 50 50
Galen Low: leading, impactful bill fighting. I know that dance well. Uh, I love it. I see in the chat someone says I need a Play-Doh pm m We were awesome. [00:05:00] Um, thank you. Thank you all for, uh, being here. I think the common thread here is that you all know how to boil it down.
Project management is dense, it’s difficult to digest. Some people don’t even want to talk about it at all, but you’ve each found ways on your various channels, uh, to just like make it make sense for folks, um, and dogs. So I appreciate you. Um, alright. I’m gonna tee this up. I’m gonna tee it up in like 30 seconds or less.
It’s probably gonna take me two minutes. Um, I. So for as long as project management has had a name, projects have been getting done off the sides of the desks of folks who might never consider themselves to be project managers at all. Maybe it’s developing new team training. Maybe it’s switching to a new accounting system, maybe it’s planning the office holiday party.
Many of these projects get done without much of the nerdy project management stuff like RACI charts and backlogs and risk registers, and maybe any kind of plan whatsoever. Instead, they leverage a very special technique called informal project management, also known as just getting it done. But here’s the thing, in 2025, [00:06:00] between the rapid AI adoption and the turbulent economy, the stakes have been raised for what makes a qualified hireable and relevant professional.
Um, project management in particular continues to live near the top of lists of the most in-demand skills, right alongside data fluency and. And AI and some of those side of desk projects. Yeah, they’re getting a little bit more complicated. Um, those new training programs are becoming training about ai.
That accounting system is expected to plug into dozens of other systems pretty seamlessly. That office party might need to start including some of your agentic teammates. Uh, but then the question is this, whether you consider yourself a project manager or not, what is the right level of project management to learn to implement and to champion in your role?
What’s enough to get you that edge these days without like wasting your time? All right. That’s my tee up. Um, and I thought maybe we dive in. I, I, I just kind of wanted to start with like. I don’t know, like the current state of project management, training and education. [00:07:00] Uh, and I, I mentioned this earlier, right?
Some people just don’t want to pick it up. It’s like indigestible, it’s dense. Um, I thought maybe I’d just asked a question like, why are some people and some organizations just so allergic to the idea of getting their people some project management training? Um, maybe I’ll throw to Crystal.
Crystal Richards: Ah, you, you got great questions, Galen.
Let’s see. Well, uh, general training is always hard, right? At any organization because it’s, you know, you’ve got a bill for that time. When it comes to project management training, I’ll start first with, from my world of PMP training. There has been this. Scarcity mindset that if I train them, then they’ll leave, right?
Mm-hmm. And unfortunately, that has been the case. I will have students come to me. I’m paying this out of my own pocket. ’cause I’m like, I’m, I’m all for other people’s money. I’m like, why won’t you get your company to pay for? And they’re like, I don’t want them know I’m getting training because I’m trying to leave.
Leave. And I’m like, [00:08:00] well, I mean, why don’t you get them to train? You pay for it and you might be inclined to stay. And there’s a whole bunch of other reasons why they might wanna leave for, you know, dynamics with their manager. But, um, that has been the one that I’ve heard a lot is that from a company standpoint, I don’t want, I, they might leave.
And it goes to that saying, I think it was Richard Branson, right from Virgin, um, uh, Atlantic, where he says, well, I. If you don’t let them get trained and they might leave, but what if they don’t get trained and they stay? Mm-hmm. So that’s something I wanna kick out there to those who are in that leadership standpoint or even just maybe hesitant to approach your manager about paying for it.
I mean, especially in this market, I don’t mind staying just a little bit longer until things kind of, the dust settles. So that’s kind of, I, I wanna hear from the, uh, other panelists, but I’ll, I’ll throw that out there. [00:09:00] It’s the fear of them leaving after you train them.
Galen Low: That’s a dance as well, isn’t it?
Right. The like, what do you pay for my training? Am I gonna get like, locked in for five years because you help me get my PNP? Uh, are you, you know, are you gonna leave because we trained you? It’s like, what a dance, what a ballet.
Crystal Richards: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, and I love that in the comment and I’ll, I’ll, I’ll let them, anyone else in the panel bring that up from Suzanne or Suzanne.
But yeah, it’s a really, a really good comment as well.
Galen Low: Yeah, that organizations might not understand project management. Uh, and, and speaking of James, you work with a lot of big organizations that I kind of just expected. You and I are both ex Accenture, but like, you know, with these big companies, I’m just like, oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
There’s probably like a little portal where you can just like learn project management at any time, but I, I don’t know. Do you find that to be the case?
James Louttit: Yeah,
Galen Low: it’s interesting. Like,
James Louttit: so I was a CIO, so I kind of play in that game a lot. Uh, a lot of the time, a lot of conversations with senior people, very few of them have pmp, right?
It’s weird. I dunno if it’s like [00:10:00] once you get your pmp, that’s projects for life or like people just hide it once they’ve, but, but very few people actually know. When they get to the top levels, what they’re talking about when it comes to projects, they’ve got there for other reasons, often, um, largely because project managers burnout, uh, and they’re working too hard and they don’t have time to sort of take a breath out and look at their career and think about, hang on a second, I could do something slightly different here.
Um, like for me, I think training is so crucial, but also particularly what’s available, like over here in Ireland and the uk there’s this thing called Prince two, which is like proper, like fun. You have to follow the process. This sign off, that sign off this document, right? DMP is not as bad as that. It gives you the toolbox, but it’s still very heavy.
And particularly like when you actually go and do the exam. And Crystal, like I read, I read a large chunk of your book and I love the way you simplify it now. Um, but there’s so much in here. Uh, and there’s stuff in here that I think is just, and not because you’ve [00:11:00] written it, it’s dead wrong from PP, right?
It’s dead wrong. Like Moscow prioritization is a terrible way to prioritize. Estimations should be done with
effort and duration, not just one. Like, there’s such simple things that people are making mistakes that, so when they come outta their pmp, even those that do, they’re like blasted by this kind of noise of all the things. And then they go back and do exactly what they were doing before, but now they’ve got three letters after their name and they cost more.
I dunno. Like what do people think?
Galen Low: I think, I mean, I personally think it’s fascinating what you said about, um, this notion that like, yeah, at that certain. CI level at the, at that executive level, like projects are getting done, productivity is important. Maybe they have a PMP, uh, maybe they don’t, but the language being spoken isn’t PMP language necessarily.
Yeah. Which I think is a myth for a lot of folks getting in. Right. So like, uh, Melissa, you probably have a better, um, eye on it than me, but like some of the, you know, younger professionals who are like, maybe I should take this up, are going like, be lining it straight to [00:12:00] like, oh, maybe I should do my PMP.
And maybe that’s right and maybe that’s not,
Crystal Richards: yeah. I just wanna add to that what James, something that James said was when I got my PMP and being here in the Washington DC area, there’s what’s called federal contracting. And my manager said, Hey, if you’re gonna be key personnel, uh, on this contract, you need to get your PMP.
And he is like, take the bootcamp, pass the exam, and then unlearn everything that you just did. And I’m like. So it’s to your point, James, about like, there’s just dense information and you’ve gotta do it this way. And that is something that I do stress in the book, is that you can skip around in the book, uh, here it is to know what’s in the exam.
But one of the things that I always tell people, and I assume that, um, the rest of the panelists do, is that, you know, you, you need to tailor to what meets the best needs of your organization. It is not do this, do that, do this. And it feels prescriptive that way. And I think that’s the [00:13:00] turnoff when you don’t necessarily get the right guide, I’ll say whether they’re a trainer or mentor to tell you, here’s the basket of everything you can do.
And given the context of your project and the situation, here are maybe some of the things that you might wanna pick and choose from, at least from a traditional standpoint. I love Moscow technique, by the way.
Galen Low: Oh, let’s get into. I told them I was gonna make them some boxing gloves with their logo on it.
Melissa, your thoughts?
Melissa Khan-Blackmore: Yeah, so I, I’ll keep mine concise. So, working on, in a lot of startups, o on the directly with, with C-Suite, I think organizations that shy away from project management training simply don’t know what true project management is like. There’s a lack of knowledge about the capability of a properly trained project manager and the profession as a whole, like, they don’t understand that there really is a science to project management.
There are real strategies, there are real tools, there are real [00:14:00] techniques that can help prevent the fire before it happens and really radically change the state of the organization. But they’re looking at, you know, they’re looking at the cost of training and they don’t, they don’t, they can’t correlate, they, they don’t see the, the value or the ROI and I think most organizations.
I always say they rather buy the fire extinguisher dur during the fire as opposed to before. And so, like to me, that’s fundamentally the problem that I’ve seen working can kind on the other side.
James Louttit: I like that. Yeah. But that’s the interesting thing, like does the PMP does a lot of the training actually give value if you’re gonna put it away after you’ve done it and you go back into the thing and you’re not doing valuable things?
Like, so, so there’s a, there’s a challenge there, right? Which is how do you train people in valuable things that aren’t necessarily like so prescriptive?
Galen Low: I actually, I wonder if we dig in there because you know, this other player has entered the chat called AI and we’re talking about, you know, um, in the chat, and Melissa, your point right, that sometimes people just don’t understand project [00:15:00] management, the value thereof.
And now conceivably we’re about to skip that whole part and go, that’s okay. AI gets it. We don’t need project management. AI has learned, they’ve done the deep learning models, they’ve learned everything about project management. We don’t even need to know anymore. Uh, but I guess in your opinion, from what you know, conversations you’ve had, like how is AI helping folks who are not project managers, lead projects?
Like where is it working and maybe where is it not helping at all?
Melissa Khan-Blackmore: Yeah, so this is a, this is an amazing question. It’s so relevant to where we are right now in time with ai. So all of the process heavy tasks that we used to learn through training, like through like James’s training or the PMP or, you know, however you’re getting your training.
So the things like building Gantt, charge tracking risks, summarizing updates, AI can now generate that stuff for us in minutes, if not seconds. My, I, I see James’s head going like this, but if you know how to prompt ai, if you know how to use the right tools, I’ve done it. So my most recent project was, [00:16:00] uh, multimillion dollar project and I just threw all my lessons learned into, uh, closed source ai and it, it spun up the best project plan that I have ever had.
It has mitigated so many risks for me, and so I’ve seen how. AI can remove that friction of the process side of project management. But where it doesn’t help to answer your question is AI cannot lead people. It doesn’t have intuition. It doesn’t build trust. It can’t build a relationship with a team member who’s really struggling and needs some understanding or just needs like your human presence.
It can’t inspire a team. It can’t, it, it can’t stand between two people and, and, and deescalate a conflict in real time that, that human judgment and that eq AI obviously cannot do. Right. But project management is a lot of process, which AI can certainly help us with, but it’s also people. And I don’t think any amount of automation or prompt engineering or any type of AI can replace that human aspect.
And I also think for people who are job searching, hiring managers know this, whether [00:17:00] it’s subconscious or or conscious, and they’re looking for more and more people who have these more deeply human traits because project management is at its core, deeply human and. I’ll stop there. I can, I can keep going.
Mic
Galen Low: drop in the chat it says preach Melissa. And I’m like, yeah, I,
James Louttit: I’m gonna, I wanna unpack a little bit of that, right? So I agree with you, Melissa. I teach how to like do risk identification, let’s say using chat, bt, something like that, right? Really useful tool, but very dangerous because for me, risk identification is a massive source of all those stakeholders out there, the team members finding out and bringing them on the journey of the project, right?
Getting them to input their risks is whether they come up with exactly the same thing as chat, GPT or not. It’s an important part of the process. And if we outsource that piece to ai, we lose something really powerful, right? ’cause it’s not about filling in a document. It’s about managing the [00:18:00] risk, right?
What’s the thing that’s keeping my team awake at night? So I do both, right? On the, on the training course, I teach the safe technique, sun writing, affinity clustering, vote, and then execute for pulling out the ideas and the things that might go wrong from my team. And once you have that, by all means, like Ask Chad PT and see what you’ve missed and see if there’s useful things in there.
Like bring it in as a tool. But if you, if you don’t ask the people, you, you won’t get buy-in. And I think that’s with the big risk, particularly for junior project managers or people who are really, haven’t had the experience of stakeholder influencing and listening to people, because that’s really the game, then I think there’s a huge risk.
That stuff just goes into risk logs because it came out of an ai. Nobody reads it, nobody believes it. And it’s not managing risk, it’s just a waste of every time, which is back to your process. We’ve got a risk log, therefore we’re managing risk problem.
Galen Low: I think that’s the magic sauce though, right? Like Melissa, when you were saying, uh, you know about your project planning and there is this, like, you have [00:19:00] that strategic, proactive mindset.
You’re looking at it and you’re like, cool, I’m gonna use this to drive the dialogue. And I think, James, that’s what you’re saying as well, is that like, yeah, let’s not skip that process of like really like thinking about the project and being bought into the project and like having ownership of the project.
But I think James, you and I, we’ve probably both been, maybe all of us, we’ve been in risk management sessions, we’re like, cool, what might happen with our project? And it’s just like crickets for like 10 minutes and everyone’s just twiddling their thumbs looking at the ceiling and you know, no one wants to, no one knows where to start.
Do you know what I mean? Um, whereas I like the idea that like the process, I’ve never
James Louttit: been in one of those. Now with the silent technique that use playdoh, you’ll get
Galen Low: their ideas out there. No time. No time. Brilliant. The trick is Play-Doh balloons, uh, marble rush and beer. The bed comes later.
James Louttit: But yeah.
Galen Low: No, I love that.
And I think that’s like a really interesting perspective. I’m seeing like loads of stuff in the chat here, which I think is really important. Just in terms of, yeah, Melissa, what you’re saying, that balance of like get good at using it. Um, yeah, don’t make it skip parts of the [00:20:00] process that are very human.
Yes. And the big mic drop that like, I was like, well we can just end the session there. Um, the human skills that people are looking for sit under project management. Hiring managers in some cases know that. Does everyone else in the organization know that? Maybe not, but that’s kind of what you’re saying I guess in a way when you’re, when you’re like, I have the skills to lead a project, um, does not necessarily mean, you know, Gantt chart and prompting ai.
It’s like the human component too. It’s a leadership thing.
Melissa Khan-Blackmore: A hundred percent. It’s 50 50. Both what, what James is saying about the human aspect and being able to really use AI to make you, you bigger batter, stronger as a project manager because it will a hundred percent.
Galen Low: Boom. I love that. I wanna, I wanna circle back around to the other player, right?
We were talking about the PP, uh, we’ve been bragging on it a little bit, but there’s some realities of it, right? James, you were saying that pmp, like no one at the top seems to have their PP or doesn’t put it on their profile. Um, and, you know, we’re talking about, uh, sort of PMP [00:21:00] as maybe an imperfect path to learning.
So certification I think is great in, in terms of learning. Not, not entirely sure, but I thought maybe I’d just kinda like put the question out there, like, who is the PMP right for these days and like, when does it become useful for professionals who like, don’t actually consider themselves to be project managers by trade, or James, to your point, who don’t want to get boxed in to project management for the rest of their career?
Uh, crystal, maybe I’ll start with you. You’ve literally written a book on it.
Crystal Richards: Yeah. You know, I, um. I think I probably still need to figure that out now. Over the last couple of years, um, when, prior to 2021, when there was the change to the exam, it, there definitely was some emphasis like on contracts, on, you know, you have your skills and then there was this boom on social media, Hey, wanna transition into project [00:22:00] management, get your pmp.
And I’m like, ah. Like that’s like, but all obviously if the market is reacting to that. And that’s what it takes to get into the job. Um, I think kind of to James’ point, I would get people who get their PMP, you know, they just did what they needed to do to pass, and then they said, but I don’t know, project management, I just learned what I need to know to pass the exam.
And that breaks my heart because, you know, even to my earlier story about, um, my boss said, unlearn everything you did, there’s really a lot of value in the things that you can tap into. I think we, it’s just become this, um, commoditized type of credential, unfortunately, that we kind of lost the flavoring of what it really can do to bring in some terminology to bring in, uh, clarity about how you can address a situation.
And what I [00:23:00] really emphasize, and I think, you know, just. Already interacting in my, my short engagement with Melissa and James. You know, you have some top tier trainers that are really gonna dive in and really tell you the so what, why does the RACI chart matter? I mean, you can use it for the sake of using it, but what I want people to understand is that those tools that you use, like monday.com, Asana, clarity, Primavera, just about 99% of the tools that are out there are actually based on these PMP, better in print two better practices.
So if you ever get stumped on like, man, I put this in here and I don’t understand why, if you really. Take a step back and like, what’s the so what of what I’m learning and how does it translate to the tool and how can it help me in better managing the project from a technical standpoint. But as James and Melissa talked about from a people aspect, I just taught a class today with the [00:24:00] corporate client on influential leadership, and I made the connection, well, how does this work to your use of Asana?
Like, what is this? So what? And when you input this information in the description, when you tag people, when you put in, uh, tags to the, uh, to the actual task itself, this is how they all come together. I. And that’s where I wanna encourage people. Don’t just go chasing it for the sake of chasing it is my, uh, kind of plea.
Like really dig into it Now, do things like you’re doing now of, you know what? I really did struggled with this concept. I’m gonna actually learn a little bit more and see if it’s applicable to my project. I kind of like this WBS thing. In fact, I do like a WBS, like that is what I’ll, I’ll get my whiteboard out and that’s what I actually do to start planning and then work backwards to create a project charter.
So the world is your oyster. Choose your adventure on how you wanna order things and do it. But there’s a lot of great tools and great ahas and nuggets that I [00:25:00] think come from the training. And I think if you have a great trainer that gives you that so what behind it, you’re better for it.
Galen Low: I love it. This is such a good decoder ring for everything.
Go. Go ahead.
James Louttit: Yes. You’re so right Crystal. Like it’s, it comes down to the ability to sort the wheat from the chaff. Right? So one of, so like there’s so much in PPI did my PP right. I passed it and I’m good at exams. I’ve just passed, like I read the book, I did some exam prep and I passed the exam and a lot of it I didn’t see value in and a lot of it I did.
But, but the trouble is everything is level, everything is the same emphasis when you are studying it. Right? So for example, one of the massive blind spots that most project managers have when they’re estimating thing is the difference between work effort and duration. And even I had a little check back into your, into the book and the PMP exam is currently talking about estimating induration.
And I think that’s actually a bad way to do it. Estimating work effort and then plan in duration and understand your [00:26:00] resource leveling. And if you miss that trick, your project plans will be rubbish and your estimates will be rubbish. And that fundamentally is the, is the gap. And you and I can know that we estimate an effort and plan in duration, but if you don’t make that distinction really clear and bang it home three times throughout the course, people will miss it.
And then they’ve got these plans that are kind of like worky duration plans that are bad and don’t actually give chance to deliver the course. And unfortunately, that’s the problem with the methodology approach or the the exam, but particularly the exam based approach to learning this stuff. I think do it because you’re gonna get paid more right back to the history of the world.
You’re gonna get a 10% bump when you do your pmp. That’s it. Do p and p get a 10% vote? But please, please understand it and use the good stuff and throw away the bad stuff. Like, and if you don’t understand it, don’t use it. That, that would be my plea, uh, to, to people who are thinking about this stuff. I like what you’re saying about the [00:27:00] flatness of it.
Galen Low: Go on Melissa.
Melissa Khan-Blackmore: Use AI to do your estimates. That’ll solve your problems. It’s always very, you
Galen Low: so wrong. You’re so wrong. Try to give James a heart attack here. Tell me about the process because.
Melissa Khan-Blackmore: It worked.
James Louttit: Finish your, finish your question.
Melissa Khan-Blackmore: I I, I’m gonna preface, which is saying, I, I definitely agree with the fact that like, the PMP is not gonna like magically get you a job. It’s not gonna magically make you a better project manager overnight. You really ha And, and I think when PMI designed the EM book guide, I’m gonna, I’m gonna, I’m gonna defend them a little bit here.
They, they don’t expect you to use every tiny tool in EV in the order that they, they have it in. It really is, even when you really dig into the pen book guide, they expect you to pick and choose what processes and tools work best for you and your team and your project. And I think while yes, there’s some stuff in there that’s controversial, I, I don’t agree with everything in the PEM book guide.
I do [00:28:00] think the premise of initiating through closing and a lot of those tools, like I love a good work breakdown structure. Are you kidding me? I Crystal, I resonate with you so hard on that. I, I think there’s a lot of good in the PEM book guide and I think if you, like, I used like. P-M-I-P-M-P strategies to plan my wedding.
And it was perfection. But like I, I do think there’s a lot of good in that. However, I do agree that like, if you don’t have the experience or the confidence, it’s gonna be, PMP is not gonna really do much for you. And it is sad when, you know people that don’t really quite qualify for the PMP, they, they go out and they get a PMP using, you know, they kind of, they, you know, they do the thing and they get the PMP and then they’re like, oh no, what do I do now?
And it’s like, you really need, whether it’s like volunteer pro bono work, this is some, some great advice For those of you, I know my, some, some of my students are in the audience. If you have just some sort of experience that you can fall back on and then give you that, that PMP will give you that confidence as well.
And that kind of gold stamp of approval, that’s a good way to use it. But [00:29:00] is it gonna make you a better project manager overnight? No. You know, something like James training, wheres more practical application is gonna be probably a little bit better for that.
Galen Low: You know, what if I can get in there, like, I think that’s like what makes this such a great decoder ring, right?
Where. PMP isn’t training Crystal. You said like there was this sort of blow up at some point there was like a new edition and now it’s for everybody and everyone can learn project management. But fundamentally, when I took my PMP, uh, it was about validating years of experience that I already had. It wasn’t training, it was validation and accreditation.
And now I think it’s being thrown around as like, oh, it’s my next step out of college. And I’m like, uh, the other thing that keeps coming outta this conversation, I hear like, guide trainer, right? Some support to help you like navigate through this because some of these things aren’t training and you do need to build that judgment to like pick and choose.
And some of these techniques are really valid, but like, you know, committing any version of the PMBOK to memory and then just going out into the world probably isn’t the right idea. The one place I wanted to take it though, because I’m interested, I’m [00:30:00] curious and I’m old, uh, is Melissa, I’m like, tell me about PMBOK TikTok.
Not really, but like, you know. TikTok social media, short form video? Like as a guide? Maybe not like training. Training, maybe training. Oh. But also as a guide, like how was, how does that change the game in terms of like, instead of, right. Mm-hmm. Saying, okay, well, like it looks like I need my PMP to like succeed at life.
I’ll start doing that right now. Is there a sort of like a place to start for folks to kind of start exploring and start learning and start sort of building this judgment before they start committing to something bigger?
Melissa Khan-Blackmore: Definitely. So I think one thing we don’t talk enough about is how many people are already leading projects and don’t even realize it.
And that’s, that’s, that’s a lot of the educating that I’m doing on, on TikTok. So that realization when you, when you realize like, oh my gosh, I’ve been running projects for a really long time, very formally, there are people who are. From charter to close out doing lessons learned and they’re doing project management, but they don’t [00:31:00] even realize it.
And so that realization is often what changes everything. And I think a, I mean, I’ve had hundreds of people over the years, I’ve been doing this for four years now, and have, I’ve had hundreds of people come to me and, and say like, thank you. I was able to get a, a, a, a higher pay. I was able to, you know, pivot it to a formal project management role because I didn’t realize the work that I was doing was truly project management.
And so, and this is where we layer in that PMP, which is like the PMP isn’t just for people with the job title, project managers for people who are running projects and want that gold stamp of approval on their, you know, that, that those, those credentials behind their name and to, to kind of give them that leg up.
So I think for me, when it comes to short form video, are you gonna learn how to be a better project manager through like a 32nd, 22nd video? No, you may learn tips and tricks. You may learn like something like I talked about the other day, like a, a interesting question to ask your team to get, uh, them to explain, you know, the risks that they, they foresee.
Like, you can get quick tips and tricks out of those things. You can get realization, you can get [00:32:00] confidence. Um, I think it’s, it’s really good for that. But of course, it’s like TikTok is not a, a training guide or, or a training course. Um, but it, there is so much value in short form video, which is why we see the explosion of Shortform on platforms now like LinkedIn, where they’re really pushing that, that short form content because it, it’s effective and it works and it’s exciting and it’s, it’s, you know, it.
Attention grabbing.
James Louttit: Mm-hmm. Gives, I’m gonna have a crack at TikTok. Short form training. Right. I’ve already got some videos. Uh, but genuinely, I, I kind of agree with what you’re saying, Melissa, like, it’s good. That’s too long or too short. There’s only too boring, right? You can binge watch. I could binge watch an absolute expert talking for 2, 3, 4 hours
Crystal Richards: and
James Louttit: learning every second, or get bored with someone for 30 seconds.
So it’s not too long or too short, it’s too boring is the question. And if you can make content that’s engaging, interesting, useful, all the way through, however long it [00:33:00] is, I think people will follow it and use it. And I think probably that’s the skill that maybe you and I need to, uh, like I need to learn from you, right?
How do you get those, those points across in short, snappy, uh, videos. But they’re really useful stuff, right? How to do planning poker in 30 seconds, how to do a lean coffee in one minute, right? That stuff I think is really powerful. Um, and I think we can build those skills and that.
Just bumping into learning isn’t good enough. I need to direct my learning. I need to go and find the person that I need to follow, and not just the person. I need to find the person talking about the right topic. And I choose the audio books that I listen to. So I think if you’re listening to this, you are in the right place, uh, because Galen and stuff is brilliant, and I, I love the podcast, but you should also be looking at, okay, hang on a second, I’ve got a gap in negotiating.
Oh, I need a big negotiation. I better go and read a book on negotiation, audio book out for a walk, and off you go. And for me, I think that’s where you take ownership of your, [00:34:00] um, of your own journey. And PMP is part of that, but it’s only a tiny little part. And for me, it’s more about the signal that you’re gonna get, the extra 10% pay rise or the job offer or get flagged as a pm if that’s what you want, versus that it’s the only way.
And, and, and you’re gonna have everything you need after doing PMP I just don’t think that’s true.
Galen Low: I like this sort of like this pastiche that’s being painted, right? There’s like no one right way, um, tips, exposure, right. To people who know what they’re talking about, especially if they’re not boring. Like short corn video could be the thing, right?
You know, just five negotiation tips that you need from someone you know, who’s been leading projects that have gone wrong for the past decade. You know, it’s like that, that’s helpful too. PMP maybe is that sort of like level up? You know, it’s the, uh, it’s the, the, the check you can cash, right? To say I have these skills.
But Melissa, to your point, you’ve been, a lot of people have been building them along the way, have been exposing themselves to it along the way. It doesn’t start and end necessarily with like a certification, uh, or like a, a framework like Prince [00:35:00] two or what have you. It almost like can culminate there Crystal.
Crystal Richards: Yeah. And I think, you know, when you think about some of these other certifications that are out there, I mean, I was gonna do the analogy of, of being a doctor and I’m like, that’s a terrible analogy. So like, maybe like a, a cybersecurity, right? I mean. You could do all the work and have the skill sets, but isn’t there, what is the value?
And I would say that it, it’s, it’s this confidence, right? That you have, that someone has this training and this certification that they do know the core competencies and that was the intent of the PMP, that you have the core compet competencies, you have the, the background depending on your educational level.
And I think we have kind of diverged from that a bit. And I think there’s an opportunity to kind of get back in line a bit. So, uh, one of the things that the PMBOK was mentioned, I do, I definitely want to make sure if you see the comment from Cheryl [00:36:00] Galen about, you know, is there something between PMP and just winging it?
And I’d love to hear from the rest of the panelists, like through social media and some of us, uh, you know, already kind of hinted at it, but. Some, sometimes there’s, it’s just nice to have a reference and I think you have references for you like James’ book, like Melissa’s, uh, TikTok presence, like my book where I saw that, hey, let’s make it.
Crystal clear and make sure that you know what’s, what’s the so what behind it. So if you want that reference point, so if social media works for you, that’s great. Now, will social media be what you need? If you feel that getting this credential, putting the feather in your cap and saying, yes, I, I’m committed.
And that’s what I really tell people is that it’s a signal to the community, potential employers, recruiters. That you are committed to this career field. Like, I’m not just saying I’m a project manager, even though it might list it here, [00:37:00] but, uh, unfortunately I’ve seen time and time, and again, people who have the years of experience get passed over by someone who is just enough project management experience and they have the PMP.
So if it’s a signal to the positions that you want, and sometimes what I coach and guide people is, you know, look at the people that you admire. If you admire James and Melissa and myself and Galen, and you look at their background and what credentials do they have, what positions, and if it’s a consistent certification that keeps coming up, one, reach out to those folks and say, Hey, did you find value?
Do you find value in this credential? And then two, maybe it is that indicator that you want to get the PMP. Just as a quick aside, I had someone reach out to me and said, Hey, I, I’m considering change management or PMP, which one should I get? And I’m like. I don’t know what you wanna do with your career.
Like those are really two different things to me. I teach PMP and if you want to be in that [00:38:00] project management lane, um, but, you know, credentials get expensive. So just, just, I saw someone also in the chat about the disciplined Agile and I’m, I’m gonna step away from that ’cause I’m done with credentials.
Like I’m good. I don’t need that anymore. ’cause they’re expensive to maintain, uh, not only in terms of your time, um, for getting the pdu. And then you have to pay to research. So just be strategic and know your why. What is your why around that? If you wanna be more in project delivery, you wanna be a, you see yourself as a PMO director.
I see the value in it. And especially if the positions keep saying P and p preferred B. Yes. Mm-hmm. You should consider it.
Galen Low: I wanna make maybe, maybe I can make that shift. James, I think you’re about to go here anyways because we’re kind of talking about p and p as a way to kind of be recognized and maybe have a leg up if you’re pursuing a career in project management.
James, you [00:39:00] mentioned that folks at the top, the C-suite, the CIOs, your, your CIO peers, not a lot of them seem to have PMPs and I think in the green room, as we were doing prep, you mentioned to me that you’ve actually hidden the fact that you have a PMP so that you don’t get stuck in a project lane. So like where does this top out?
Is it the question of like you, you’re, you know, like you said earlier, do you get locked into projects by having a PMP credential?
James Louttit: I think, look, I don’t regret at all doing my PMP. I did it after my breakdown and after my, uh, that experience in 2016, which I know a lot of people resonate with. And those of you that don’t know me, um, like, you know, I went through a, a pretty horrific thing, uh, because I was trying to manage my project in ways I didn’t really understand and I was following a process that was kind of the organization’s process, and it broke me.
But after that, I did my PMP and I learned a load of stuff and I got better as a project manager. But I also realized that [00:40:00] PMP is not the whole thing. And Chris, you said something about like, is it PNP or is it change management? I don’t actually see a difference between project management or, and change management.
I don’t see a difference between what Scrum master does and what a project manager does. I see differences in the mechanics of what they do. But the soft skills, the how to motivate people, the how to understand and estimate things, they’re all, all the skills of a scrum master are valuable to a project manager.
All the skills of a change manager are valuable to a scrum master. They’re all valuable, right? So find the skills that are gonna be valuable to you in your role. And I think that’s where the. The certification problem breaks, right? Because if you bucket and say it’s only project management stuff that I’m gonna learn, then you are gonna missing out on negotiation and design thinking and facilitation techniques and change management and listening.
And if you think you are gonna be a change manager, you’re not gonna know about gun charts and risk management, right? And if you’re gonna be a score master and you don’t know how to like plan things out, then you are just missing a trick, right? Because your stakeholders [00:41:00] wanna see that in most organizations.
So learn all of the things that you need and just keep learning. That’s the thing. Just keep going. It’s not just once and done with a certification. I like the growth mindset aspect.
Crystal Richards: James, I have to ask, I have to ask. So is it keep learning or keep getting certifications?
James Louttit: Keep learning,
Crystal Richards: right? So it doesn’t have to be getting a certification per se.
Yeah,
James Louttit: absolutely. I like for me, certification, I can take or leave them, right? I’ve, I’ve got some. I’m a scaled Agile framework person, and I’m a scrum master. And I’m a pmp. Or not anymore. I’ve lapsed my PMP because I did like what were the PD for? I’m just reading a book every day. I teach the stuff, right?
Like what? I don’t need that level anymore. So for me, it’s much more important to direct your learning at the useful things that you need the problem. So there’s a great book, right? I had to have a crucial conversation, difficult conversation with someone in my scout group. Actually, Scouts is a, is a thing that I do.
And there was this guy and like clashing. So I was like, [00:42:00] oh, I don’t wanna have this bad, nothing. I couldn’t find anything in PMP or any, any of this. So I went and found a book called Crucial Conversations, and I read it and it was useful. And then I did some of the things in that book, and then we don’t have problem anymore, right?
So that, so for me, that’s the point, right? Find the problem you have and learn a thing that’s gonna be useful for that problem. It’s good to get a base, a certification and don’t get me wrong, right, I think PMP will give you a 10% pay rise until that happens. Right? Do it, you know, fine, get your PMP, get your project management, pay rise.
But then you, if you wanna keep going up, you can’t be a CIO just off the back of a pmp. You need to understand it, security, and you need to understand, you know, motivating teams and having discussions about value with stakeholders and like taking very, you can’t be a CF, so that’s the point, right? Drive your career in your direction and these certifications are part of it by all means.
But don’t stop there and, and the [00:43:00] problem is you do six months and you’re exhausted and then you stop maybe for a year or two years learning. And I’d rather do bite-size and find the good stuff and keep applying it.
Galen Low: This is such a good detangle. I want to get into audience questions in a little bit, but I just wanted to say that I appreciate this detangle, where Crystal you kind of opened up and you said like, I think.
Not necessarily PMI, but the world kind of got confused about what all these things are. Training, tips, techniques, coaching, certification, but like we’ve kind of just detangled it, right? Sometimes you do need a practical tip, James, to your point, maybe that’s a book, uh, Melissa, maybe that’s short form video just to kind of get you over that hump.
Structured training and structured learning or having a guide or having some help, like a trainer to kind of guide you and like to help you find where you want to go with your career. And if you do wanna go deep and be recognized for it, then yeah, certifications are great. Maybe not the entire alphabet, but where you want to get that pay rise, where you want to edge out the other, you know, your competition.
[00:44:00] Um, I hate to say it that way, but I think it is, right? It’s like so that you get that promotion first so that you get that job over that other person. Like that’s where the, that’s what the muscle is for. Like, well, that’s kinda what it does. So again, it comes back to what you want to do. With the thing that you’re going to do, is it about mastering a technique, like crucial conversations?
Is it about being a great project manager? Is it about just growth mindset learning, continuously learning and just being better and better and better? It’s fabulous. Um, I, uh, I do wanna get into questions a little bit. I’m gonna like shelve my other questions ’cause they might come up anyways. Um, but before we get into q and a, um, I just have a few things to share, a few resources to share.
Uh, first of all, if you’re loving this type of thing, um, we’d love to see you again next week at our next live session, which is called How to Use Your PM Skills to Negotiate a Raise in 2025. Michael’s gonna pop that link in the chat. We’re gonna be leveraging fresh data from our 2025 DPM salary survey that is being published apparently today, uh, to help folks with what to do, uh, what to say and how to say it to no [00:45:00] negotiate for a better salary to get around some of the common blockers and more, uh, you can RSVP for that event, uh, using that link in the chat.
Um, you can also find, uh, our guests online, um, sharing even more about some of the best practices and advice that they’re talking about today. Uh, we’ll share some of these links in the chat. Uh, James has his book, it’s also narrated by him as an audio book, which is lovely. The printed book has great cartoons.
Leading impactful teams is the name of the book. Uh, crystal just made, uh, a list of the top five things she wished every PMP student knew before they started studying and is available as a free Google Doc. We’ll link that there. Uh, and Melissa is just sharing content regularly on LinkedIn. You can follow her there.
Uh, and if you do like learning on TikTok, then you can join her and the 64,000 followers, these serious wow folks getting project management tips from her over there. Um, and the last thing I wanna say is that, uh, we here at the Digital Project Manager, we thrive on feedback. It can be raw, honest feedback.
We love it. This is our product. This is the experience that we wanna keep iterating on and getting better and better and better. This is our sort of area of [00:46:00] growth. Uh, Mike was gonna put a uh, link in the chat. He already has. Um, just with a quick survey, if you’ve got like a minute or two, we’d love to know what you thought about today and also where we should go from here.
What other topics, um, we should tackle in future events. Yeah. Okay. Whew. Let’s, let’s start doing, um, some questions, uh, from the audience. Um, I’m just gonna dive down here. I know we answered some along the way, um, and we can dive deeper if need be. But I, I wanna go into this one, which is, um, about remote project managers.
Uh, the question is, what’s the future for remote PM roles now in the project management subreddit? Tons of users say, remote PM work is dead. But is it, and why does it have to be paid lower than an in-office role? That’s a juicy one. Anyone wanna take that?
James Louttit: I’ll love a go. So, uh, no, it’s not dead. Uh, like projects need managing.
If they’re remote, [00:47:00] they need a manager, right? Someone’s gonna manage it now. Uh, so, so it’s definitely not dead. Different set of skills, right? And harder, much harder than managing it when you can meet people and, and get to, to, so you are gonna, it’s gonna be much harder. Fundamentally. Project’s gonna take longer.
The relationship’s gonna be harder to maintain. It’s gonna be not as good, uh, as, uh, as it can be if you get some time face to face, right? Um, on the question about why it has to be paid less, the competition is much higher, right? If you are in a location where there’s a project going, Melissa, you’re talking about hospital, right?
The, the people who are in and around that area, like they need to go there and do stuff physically, so they need to live in that area. If that hospital’s in the middle of San Francisco, you need to pay an expensive person who lives in San Francisco to manage it, right? If everything’s online. You can find a great project manager in a different part of the world where living isn’t as expensive and you can pay them less.
And they’re okay with that, right? I’ve got a virtual assistant who lives in the Philippines. She’s amazing. She’s [00:48:00] awesome, and I pay her, well, I pay her very well for the Philippines. Uh, but she’s competing with people who are trying to do social media marketing and that kind of stuff in London or someone like that.
She’s gonna walk all over them. She’s just better. So I think that’s the challenge, right? This arbitrage of where you live only really kicks in if you get in the office. And that’s not what people want to hit, but that’s tricky.
Melissa Khan-Blackmore: I think just to add onto that, it’s not dead, it’s just more in demand, so there’s more competition for those roles and it’s harder to, to get, and then yes, there’s situations like James, my VA is also in the Philippines and she does an incredible job.
And so yeah, there’s, it’s, it’s not dead. I’m, I’m fully a fully remote, uh, program manager, but you know that, that there would be a fight for my job. There would, there would be probably hundreds and hundreds of applications if I, you know, wasn’t in this role. So competition,
James Louttit: imagine what you could [00:49:00] be paid if you were in, if you were there, Melissa, like I’d love to have you managing projects.
Galen Low: I was gonna say the opposite. I was like, if you’re a remote pm don’t live in San Francisco.
James Louttit: That’s true. Definitely a very
Galen Low: expensive place to live. Um, I I have another question here. Um, kind of focusing around foundations, um, versus sort of like new frameworks. The question is what strategies can help professionals continuously integrate new frameworks like Prince two without losing focus on foundational skills?
I have a feeling James might have some thoughts here, but also pop on anybody.
James Louttit: I have thoughts, but I’ll let someone else go first if they stick.
Galen Low: This is specific to Prince two, I think. Is it found, uh, like frameworks like Prince two
Crystal Richards: Oh oh, okay. Um, I’m gonna defer to Melissa.
Melissa Khan-Blackmore: What was the, was the question What are like, what are our thoughts on [00:50:00] frameworks like Prince two?
Galen Low: It’s like the strategies to help you kind of integrate new stuff, like as new frameworks are coming out. Oh. Without losing focus on some of the foundational skills. And, and um, correct me in the chat if I’m wrong, but I’m thinking of foundational skills, like some of the things we’re talking about, like, you know, can we get too far away from some of these human skills negotiation?
Or even just like James, the way you explain planning and prioritization and then trying to work in all of these like frameworks that are gonna come within our own jargon and have to be done sort of a certain way and might have some rigidity to it. Mm-hmm. Um, is it gonna pull people away from something that actually was a simple foundational thing.
Melissa Khan-Blackmore: So I think the, the key for that is, crystal said something earlier that I teach all of my students, which is like, figure out your why first, right? What do you fundamentally want to do? What is your purpose? What like lights you up? What is exciting to you as a project manager? ’cause there’s different project management roles, there’s different types of things.
You could, you could be in C-Suite like James, and maybe that’s your trajectory, right? So figure out your why first. Then based on that, you figure out what am I missing in order to do [00:51:00] my why? Really, really well. If I wanna be a tech program manager and I wanna manage a big team, am I a good communicator?
Am I a good negotiator? Am I a good collaborator? You know, am I emotionally intelligent? Figure out what are those things you’re missing? Or maybe your team is agile and you just don’t know agile and you need to, you need to take a a course on Agile, or you need to learn. Then learn, learn that thing a little bit at a time.
You don’t wanna do information overload. A lot of people take in way too more mo way more information that they can actually ever apply in that pace. So you learn the thing and then you apply it. That has been like, how I’ve been able to, to kind of like do a good job and, and move up as fast as I have, is like, learn the skill.
I’m missing the one thing. I focus on that for a month. I apply it, I apply it, I apply it, I get really good, and then I move on to the next thing. Right? So I think it’s like, it’s less about, there’s so many people that are like, which certification should I get? Which is gonna, which is gonna make me like, you know, well that doesn’t matter.
You need to figure out what is right for you. What do you actually fundamentally want to do with your life and with your career? And I think [00:52:00] that that should drive everything.
James Louttit: Just a couple of builds of what you’re saying, Melissa. Like, so what you’re saying there about learn a thing, great, do it better, teach it.
Melissa Khan-Blackmore: That for me is
James Louttit: when you really understand something, right? Once you teach someone else, then you understand it for me and I think that’s what I constantly trying and that’s how you build your team. This is why I was able as a CIO to go down to a four day week because my team just started stepping up into whatever I was doing.
’cause I kept on teaching them how to do it. And that’s great. Takes the pressure off me, gives them opportunities. It’s a wonderful thing. Back to the mid beginning of the question again. You asked about Prince two and applying methodologies Don’t Yes. Just don’t right. Stop it. Right. Method Prince two is designed projects in controlled environments.
It was designed by some guys over in the UK in a very specific set of circumstances where they needed sign off on everything because there were politicians in charge [00:53:00] and they needed to prove everything had been done. And what it does is it creates massive amounts of bureaucracy that is unnecessary in most organizations.
It’s not a complete waste of time in some organizations, but in most organizations, PRINCE two is overcooking. And it’s not empowering people, it’s not giving people an ability to manage things well. So if your organization is a very controlled, and if you are, maybe if you are doing a spatial or something, right?
Like if you are building something that has to be really, really controlled, fine print two, go and study it and use the best bits of it. Right? But most of us aren’t there, right? Most of us, and that’s the problem with methodologies, is they’re designed. By the people who understand the area that they understand for the area that they understand.
And the skill for the rest of us is to understand their thing and their thing and your thing and my thing and everybody’s thing and figure out what we’re gonna do in my location. Right? And I think that’s where you start to have good conversations internally. And I think the simpler you make it, so [00:54:00] my, my methodology, if you wanna call it that, is value and effort prioritization.
That’s it. Highest value, lowest effort things first. Everything else is extra, right? And that just unlocks lots of things. So I don’t, I don’t think I can boil it down any simpler than that, but that’s a useful tool. Whatever you’re doing. And, uh, and I think most of these, most of these particularly things like print two PB is not so bad, right?
’cause it is a body of knowledge. It’s a, it’s a useful set of tools as long as you’re not doing earned value and VR and all that kind of jazz because nobody really understands that. Um, like I’ve never seen it used. Uh, and then, uh, but, but at least it’s a useful toolbox, right? Whereas I think the methodology, even something like Scaled Agile, the scaled Agile framework is like this idea that we take agile and stick waterfall over the top of it and then have these like three monthly planning sessions where everybody comes together, these bits of stick.
It’s just wrong. And I’ve seen organizations, big organizations broken and [00:55:00] people put in hospital by this stuff following a methodology. Just ’cause you’re following a methodology is a bad idea. Understanding a methodology is useful, but following it just ’cause it’s there is super bad and wrong. And I’ll fight against it every day in my life.
Galen Low: I love that. It’s such an important thing. Yeah,
Crystal Richards: I love it. We can have drinks all day, James, because I’m so glad you said that. I didn’t mean to cut you off Galen, but I, I, when I heard the question, I’m like, Hmm, I don’t know if it’s gonna go over well. ’cause why are you focused on the whole implementing a framework?
Right. So that was my first inclination. It’s, here’s the toolbox. James said, but it’s, it just like when we even get into that hole, you are doing water agile. You’re doing like. You are the expert, you are the project professional, and you are helping the organization as a strategic business owner to help them through.
Here’s the best way that I think, based on my understanding of this organization and what we need, and someone said it best, I was trying to find it in the chat where she’s [00:56:00] implementing these things piecemeal to find those, get those short term wins and not fixated on a framework. So if it was you, go ahead and shout out in the chat again.
But it’s, I, I, it’s knowing here’s a framework, but I would be careful because that’s when you get boxed in really easily. You get burdened by all the administrative paperwork. And I have been in many organizations where they’ve built beautiful documents and never use them. Mm-hmm. So, and it was all about creating this framework, creating this PMO type structure.
Just get the win is my encouragement. And that’s where knowing those good set of tools, keep learning will get you there and get you further in your project goals.
Galen Low: Boom. I love that. Um, we’re nearly at time. I, there is a great question in there about what makes an exceptional pm. I almost want to have a separate session for that if you all don’t mind.
Uh, it’s a great question. I’m sorry we didn’t get around to it. Uh, but honestly, uh, I just wanted to say thanks to everyone who attended. This was lots of fun. [00:57:00] Uh, to our panelists, um, thank you again for volunteering your time, sharing your knowledge, teaching in a not boring way in your respective channels.
Uh, and again, I encourage everyone here to follow these three. They’re excellent. Uh, and if you could take one thing away, the big theme I think was just know the reason why you’re doing a thing. Why are you taking from a framework, what was a context that that framework was, uh, was created in? What is the, what is the purpose of the PMP?
What’s it gonna do for you? Uh, and find the things that help you learn. Continue to grow, get the training, and then maybe get the certification to get you to where you need to go. All right, I’ll leave it there. Amazing. Thank you so much. Have a great rest of your whatever day of the week it is. Um, and I will see you guys all at the next one.
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