How to Build Impactful Rapport With Your Clients

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Galen Low: Trust. It never comes for free. It's Monday morning and you find yourself facing down a new client that looks grumpier than that cat meme. The previous project manager cut and ran, and you've inherited a project that is so far off the rails that train metaphors don't even hold up anymore. Your colleagues advise you to go in guns blazing. "Show 'em who's boss", they said. "Don't agree to do anything. Shut 'em down", they said. 

Most PMs would be crumpling under the pressure at this point, but you've got a secret weapon — you know how to establish rapport and start building trust. Not with gimmicky banter and expensive dinners, but with authenticity. You've done your homework, you've come prepared. You know your stuff and you're ready to position yourself as their strategic partner. But before you get down to business, there's just one thing to do. You smile confidently and you say, "Hey, I'm the new project lead. Nice to meet you. How was your weekend?" And you watch the ice break itself.

If you've struggled to justify the ROI on building strong, multidimensional client relationships, this episode is for you. We're going to talk with a client services expert about ways to build trust and rapport with your clients in a way that impacts your projects positively, keeps your budget and utilization in line, and makes you an invaluable asset to your agency.

Hey folks, thanks for tuning in. My name is Galen Low with The Digital Project Manager. We are a community of digital professionals on a mission to help each other get skilled, get confident, and get connected so that we can amplify the value of project management in a digital world. If you want to hear more about that, head on over to thedpm.com/membership.

Okay, today we're talking about client relationships and the role that a project manager can play in developing that kind of rapport that contributes to the sustained impact that their projects can have. With me today is Melissa Morris, a deeply experienced agency specialist and founder of Agency Authority, a project management and operations consultancy that helps agencies operate productively and profitably without the toxicity.

Melissa, thanks for being here with me today. 

Melissa Morris: Oh, I'm so excited for this conversation. We've already been brainstorming tons of great things, so I'm really excited to dig in here. 

Galen Low: Yeah, I know even just like us prepping for this, we came up with 17 other podcasts and event ideas, so and it's been a blast.

So more to come from us, but I'm really excited to dive in because one of the things that you and I were talking about was just this notion of How project managers, especially working within agencies or some kind of client services context, how they can strategically and also just authentically develop rapport with their clients in a way that is good for business and it got me really thinking because like in my community.

Sometimes folks need to vent a little bit, right? It can be a frustrating experience working with clients. They're like, Oh, gosh, it's like this kind of exasperation. But overall, it's like not necessarily something that needs to be the case. I thought maybe I'd get your hot take on a hot question right off the bat.

And my question basically is this is, the relationship between a client and an agency project manager can often be really quite adversarial. I'm just thinking like, why is that the case? And why is it worth investing in building better relationships instead of just accepting that this is just the way it is in the agency world?

Melissa Morris: Yeah, I think there definitely can start to feel like this us versus them type of relationship. They're doing this to me. They asked for more revisions. And I think what's important to realize is As the agency, you have been hired in as the experts. You have been brought in, you have the expertise. That means you're the one leading this relationship.

So that means you can also lead and guide whether it feels very adversarial or it feels very friendly and it feels good and it feels like a good relationship. And I think with all relationships that starts to come with good communication, really good communication, really strong client onboarding to start.

I think getting clear about scope, timeline, deliverables, and staying in good communication with your client does lead to friendly client relationships versus those that feel like us versus them. 

Galen Low: I think it's really good because I think a lot of folks enter the role on purpose or by accident, right? And things happen to them and it feels very reactive.

It's okay, client requests coming in and there's this pressure to do a thing. And I don't think a lot of project managers enter the role thinking of themselves as a specialist. And if they do think of themselves as a specialist, it's not often that they think of themselves as a relationship specialist, that they're in the lead.

I like that framing that you are leading the relationship. It's not happening to you. Things will happen to you, but like that overall thing is something that you can control. I like that sort of twist of yeah, you can make it positive. Like it's a perspective, but also not like delusionally you can actually do this.

There are things you can do to improve communication, to make the relationship a little bit more comfy and fun. I think a lot of folks sometimes will say to me, they're like. Yeah, but clients are clients. I'm like, why would I invest more time to make this a good relationship? Sure. Maybe it'll be easier for me, but it seems like more work. How do I benefit? 

Melissa Morris: Yeah. And we talked about this too. I am always of the mindset. It is easier to keep the clients that you do have than to go find new ones. And think about it. Your current clients are your business. Let me say it again. Your current clients are your business. If you didn't have any of your current clients, would you have a business?

And I think it's easy to forget that because we are get the project, pass it off, go find the next sale, right? And I think that can start to be the mindset, particularly if you have a agency or business that is a little more project oriented versus ongoing relationship oriented. But I always think you should be thinking about your current clients.

Yes, have a pipeline. Yes, been in sales. Yes, be focused on lead gen. Absolutely. You could also be asking more of your current clients. Is there another project they can slide into? Can we make sure they renew their agreement? Can they send you referrals? Nurturing your current clients will go a long way towards a very healthy bottom line in your agency.

Galen Low: I love that in terms of a sort of relationship driven business model. Cause to your point, acquiring a new client is a lot of work. It's expensive. There's risk involved. And when you have existing clients, like that is probably some of the best way to at least have an ongoing pipeline or opportunity to do more great work without necessarily having to go back out, into the cold calling world.

Yeah. The thing I'm thinking about in my head is that at the time of recording, a lot of folks are sort of worried about layoffs or have been hit by layoffs. And some of the stories I hear are that, yeah, like they cut the whole, project management team down like way down, but they kept the sales team and they're like, what gives?

And you can see how the model of yeah, let's just turn through projects and clients. Like we need to get new clients. Actually could paint a, I was going to say bad picture, but you know what I mean? Like it doesn't necessarily bode well for a project manager.

Melissa Morris: Yeah. It's confusing. It's a alignment. You're like, I'm doing a lot here. I'm telling, you're telling me, Oh, nurture your clients. And they're just worried about the sales team. But I can tell you, I worked in agencies for almost 10 years before I started my own business. And during that time at these agencies, it was my job to grow the current book of clients and not go get new ones.

That was sales. That wasn't my role. But if I was handed an account and it was a half a million dollar account, I was expected to grow that and look for opportunities and retain that relationship that was absolutely a part of my job, right? You even think about the title, account manager, you are the manager, you're leading it, you're in the charge of it.

You should always be looking for opportunities to grow your book of business with the client that you have. 

Galen Low: I love that. I want to come back to that too, because my background has always been like an account manager slash project manager slash BDE kind of hybrid role. 

Melissa Morris: Well, we all do in that world, right?

Galen Low: Well, I mean, isn't that, that is the sort of the agency life agency hustle, not necessarily like the icky side, but good work begets good work. And it is sort of relationship driven. That is a way to run an agency. Profitably, predictably, all that stuff, and that trickles down to the staff to have that stability, to have that level of comfort where it's not all new, all chaotic all the time. And, I can see a lot of benefit to that. 

I want to come back to that in a little bit, but I wanted to touch on, I want to learn a bit more about Agency Authority. Like you are the founder there, your consultancy that works with agencies to look at their project management process, to look at their operations.

Can you tell me a bit about who your team helps and how? 

Melissa Morris: Yeah, so we serve multi six figure agencies working to scale towards a million dollars. And we do that by helping them get the foundations in place to support sustainable scaling. And we do that through a framework called TOP, where we're focusing on your team, your offers, your processes, and your pipeline. 

So while I am a big fan of nurturing your current clients and maintaining it, I also understand that sales is a part of that. So we're looking at these four pillars because I have found that these, I mean, even into million dollar agencies and multi million dollar agencies, if you don't have a solid team, solid offers, solid processes, and a solid pipeline, you've got some work to do.

You're definitely going to have trouble gaining sustainably, keeping revenue up, profit margins up. These are just the four pillars of really any successful agency. 

Galen Low: That's really cool. I like that. My, the pipeline piece also as a mix in some of the agencies I worked with, like it was sort of a forecast or a projection of net new opportunities, right?

That pipeline, but also still the like retained account forecast, right? What are we projecting for this account? I don't know. Not everyone would say call it a pipeline, but it is set still, cashflow revenue stream flow of work to keep your staff doing, what they do well.

I really like that. I like the targeting of the, getting from the multi six figures into a million. There's just so much that happens for an agency in that stage. 

Melissa Morris: There's a lot... 

Galen Low: ...to grow like in a sustainable and predictable way. 

Melissa Morris: Yes. There's like these pivotal benchmarks, right? Once you get to that first 300 K you're like, okay, we've got something rolling here.

And then you start getting to that half a million and you're. You're like, Oh, this is really getting a lot more than I can keep my hands on, right? And me and my right hand are having trouble. And then you're bringing on more team. And now that team is really confused because they don't have the institutional knowledge of the two, three people who've been supporting you all along the way.

And oftentimes your clients are changing the type of clients you serve and support are starting to look different. So how do we lean in to these new clients and these new offers that feel more in alignment with the direction we want to take our agency without alienating the people who got us here and the clients who supported us to this moment.

And how do we work some into new packages? How do we lessen the lease and thank those that just aren't a good fit for us and doing that in a really great way so that we can all still be friendly. And all that good stuff. So there's lots of steps to get to that million dollar. And once you start getting closer to that half a million and beyond, it can feel a little bit like a wild ride there for a hot minute. 

Galen Low: The game changes. I like even your framing on that because one thing that I really like about what you do is sort of this obsession, if I can say that. And like obsession about like client relationships, like what you just said there was not about, yeah, cut off all those clients that we don't want anymore. And, onward and upward, it's like, how do we retain and, keep this sort of Good blood for lack of a better word, right?

So between everybody, it's something that factors in your work a lot. I was wondering, can you tell me the story of just one of your client relationships that kind of sparked this obsession? 

Melissa Morris: Yeah. So I was thinking about this and years ago, I worked at this boutique agency and we bought on a local ice cream shop as a client and they had a teeny tiny budget.

I mean, if it was even a hundred K that was like generous. And they were struggling. This couple was really struggling with this ice cream shop. Sales were really down. They were actually nearing retirement age and had hopes of selling the shop, right? This was part of it. And they were very stressed.

They were doing, random little ads here, sponsorships there, and just really stressed when they came to us. And I started working with these folks and I took their teeny tiny budget, but we got it focused. We made small shifts, small changes, even within the store, we made some changes for them.

And within about a year, we completely turned it around. Sales were back up. Yes, sales were back up. They were doing great. And I think by year three, they sold the ice cream shop for the profit. They went off, they retired, they got their little house by the river that they had been wanting. And just to Be able to see like the transformation that this work can really do for people.

And, they trusted us and I felt that responsibility to, they hired us. I think because it was such like a intimate, important moment, like an import, I knew how important it was for these people and it felt really important to me. It just really was an easy way. When you're working with a bigger corporation or a, we, we worked with like the counties recycling program, there's all these peoples and there's bureaucracy and it's hard to feel as connected to it, right.

But in this instance, I was just so connected to it. It was just like a magnification of how important these relationships are and what they can mean for the people you're serving. And you know how awesome it was to help these people. So that was definitely the obsession. It all started with some mint chocolate chip.

Galen Low: We got paid an ice cream for a few years. 

Melissa Morris: I would say they did give us a lot of free ice cream, which also may have contributed to this. We got a lot of free ice cream. 

Galen Low: But isn't that the seed of it, right? Like it's like a relationship where you cared, right? And you had this sort of empathy. You were along for the ride of the mission that they were on.

And by the sounds of it, it started Rocky. Yes. They were like, we need help. We have a small budget, but we're throwing it all at you guys. And I'm sure there were stressful moments of this is our livelihood. Like you guys need to take this seriously. We're freaking out and they might, not every email and correspondence and phone call with them.

I imagine was nice and calm and tickety boo, because... 

Melissa Morris: Not right. 

Galen Low: It was their business. This was their like life plan. They need to make this happen. And that can be stressful in and of itself. And there could be some agency folks and project managers especially to be like, you're just another client. I can't be bothered to care about your retirement plan.

I've got 6, 10, 25 other projects on the go. I just need to shift you on. Whereas this is something where you're able to get on side with their mission, feel like a part of it, and change your behavior in that way. And also build that trust. You use the word trust. Trust doesn't come for free in my world, right?

It's not like they walked in the door and were like, We trust you. Here's all our money. 

Melissa Morris: Right? Yeah. No, you're absolutely right. You're absolutely right. There were rocky points, but coming back to clear communication, really nurturing that relationship, showing up for them, keeping them in the loop.

We were feeling like in a deep partnership about this, right? And it was like their success was also my success. I did a good job if they're selling more ice cream. And so that connectedness and that partnership, I think, leads to even bigger transformations a lot of the time. 

Galen Low: I really like that. Based on what you learned there and across other client relationships, what advice do you have for folks who are like leading projects? Starting off a relationship and sometimes, a project manager, especially sometimes we get dropped in midway. Maybe that's true for all crafts within an agency or anywhere, but, you get dropped in midway, the relationship isn't necessarily new in terms of like agency and client, but you're new.

What's your top tip for getting that relationship started on the right foot? 

Melissa Morris: Respect that it's new and treat it like it's new. So anytime I was taking over an account I always encourage any agencies or businesses I work with, if you are a new PM or new account manager taking over or on the client side, there is a new team member coming on board, especially when that's a decision maker.

You do a micro onboarding. You come in. Hi, I'm new to the account. I've spent a lot of time reviewing notes and getting up to speed on your account. Here's what I see. Here's where I see our accomplishments have been. Here's what I see is outstanding for us. And this is what I'm looking at as the way ahead.

Does that feel in alignment? Does that feel correct? And this opens up the door. One, they're starting to already get confidence in you. Okay, they know what's going on. They're getting brought up to speed. This is looking good. Option number two. When someone was on the way out of that account, we don't know the circumstance.

Was this person ultimately fired? Had they not been doing a good job? Did something happen in their life and this transition happen very quickly? That is a prime opportunity for something to slip through the cracks. So let's circle the wagons and make sure everybody's on the same page. And it doesn't have to take long, right?

We don't need a big drawn out thing, but if I could spend 15 minutes saying, Hey, does this sound right? Are we all in sync here? Yep, that sounds right. Cool, let's go. Or they can say, Oh, wait a second. The old account manager was supposed to be doing X, Y, and Z, and that wasn't happening. Ah, okay. Now we've got an opportunity to really course correct.

Before two, three months down the road, you're fired. And they're like, yeah, this isn't working out. We're parting ways. 

Galen Low: There's so much in there that I love. Because a, I like this idea of onboarding a new person from the client team into your project no matter when it happens. They're new, treat it as new.

But I like that it wasn't like, tell me everything, it's do your homework and come to the table smart. not omniscient, right? Don't pretend you know everything. But I like that idea of here's what I see. Here's what I think we should do. Does that sound right? And then you can get through that if the answer is no, not quite right.

There's this thing, then you have this opportunity where you understand where there's been pain in the past. I can start building that trust by addressing that pain, not, bending over backwards to be like, great, you now get, a phone call on a SAS report every day until, until the project is over, not hyperextending yourself, but you're like, we're going to address that, and I think there's that sort of, some people would be like, oh, that's customer service one on one, but I don't know that it is so like basic of a concept.

It's actually quite nuanced and strategic to drive that conversation and service the customer, service your clients. In a way that is balanced and that is strategic, that is beneficial. Not like customer is always right mentality, but you know what, if we can sort of use this a pain point or a challenge or something to care about a lot, to have the anchor for our trust.

Then let's use that. 

Melissa Morris: Absolutely. And I have seen where, because I'm the new account manager, I feel like I have to show up with great ideas and push forward and we're going to crush this and this, all this enthusiasm and you can get swept up in that and miss something really important. But to your point, we don't want to swing the pendulum the other way and be like, all right, loop me in. What's the status here, guys? Right? No. 

Galen Low: We have to speak. My billable rate to tell me stuff you already know. 

Melissa Morris: Exactly. So that's why I just love this mix of this is what I see. Is that what you see too? 

Galen Low: It's really strong positioning. 

One of the things that I've been thinking about as well is just like in a lot of agencies, like I was always an account manager, project manager hybrid, which meant I was client facing. I own the relationship, but project managers specifically in agencies aren't always client facing. And sometimes they only come to meetings to I have here in my notes report on the weather, right? You're like, here's your project status report back to you, Jane, back to you, Serene, right? And it's you don't own the relationship.

You're just there to do your spiel. But like, how can a PM contribute to a healthy client relationship without maybe stepping on the toes of someone like an account manager, or someone like a business development manager, when they don't own the relationship? What is the right way to find that balance, not overstep, not try and take over, and still maybe get some time on stage in front of the client to build that relationship?

Melissa Morris: Yeah, that's such a great question because project managers sometimes have to be bad cops. Right? Like the account manager gets to be, Oh, my buddy, the client. Oh, they need extra time. And the project manager has to say, no, there is no extra time. There's not extra budget. There's not extra time. The answer is no.

And so it can be tough then to be bad cop and good cop at the same time, right? Like still show up in a way that is fostering a really strong client relationship, sticking to the overall agency's timeline and not have your account manager mad at you. Like you shouldn't, you know how much they pay us.

They should get an extra round of revisions. And you're like, no, they shouldn't. So I do think it is a very practiced skill set and definitely requires relationship management of its own accord with the project, right? Because there's a big difference between saying no, the deadline is the end of the week versus saying we have the deadline at the end of this week.

And if we're going to meet your overall timeline, we're going to need this from you by Friday. What roadblocks are coming up for you that is making you feel like this isn't going to happen? Is there something we do can do to support you? Hello upsell add on to help you with that, to help you get that across the finish line, because we want to make your goal, where can we make up time somewhere else?

So really coming in from that problem solving mindset, what do they always say? Don't come to me with a problem. Come to me with solutions. And I think that is a project manager's number one job. Don't come and say the project's completely off track. Come and say, we need to course correct, these are some options that I see that we can course correct, which one feels most viable.

Galen Low: I love that. I mean, there's so many people who do think, yeah, their job is to say no. And no in any relationship is pretty, it's fickle, you know what I mean? 

Melissa Morris: It is fickle. 

Galen Low: Everything is sort of a negotiation, I guess I should say, right? I don't want to make it seem transactional, but The solutions focus is there is something we can do.

It might cost more money and it might take more time, but there's a thing that we can do and, let us be helpful. And I also like the idea. I mean, you said something about like good cop, bad cop, and being, one in the same and the same person, which I can definitely relate to, especially as someone who was like an account manager and project manager in one.

Melissa Morris: I wore both hats, as well, at the same time. 

Galen Low: You're like, it's like you're Gollum and Smeagol, like talking to yourself going no, but we want to be able to give them, an extra round of revisions. No precious time. It's you have to be two things, but also I guess the other thing that's in there is the fact that an account manager and a project manager can also function as a team. 

And that's probably a whole different episode of the sort of quote unquote, sometimes adversarial relationship between sales and account manager and project managers. But when they're working together to make that decision in advance to be like, we can't do endless revisions because they won't hit their goal.

We'll just like cycle endlessly. This business will go under, like we just can't do that. What can we do? Let's like get on the same page. Let's decide who's going to be good cop, bad cop. Let's decide what our message is before we go into the room. So that's not happening in real time. And that's so we look like something that is, can be trusted.

Because I think the other thing is when a promise gets made when someone is outside of the room, and then It's Oh, but we can't do that. It's well, we already promised that we do that. That's where a lot of that friction comes from. That translates into a negative client relationship too.

Because they're like, guys, get your act together. Can we have revisions or not? Because I was told that we could have it. 

Melissa Morris: Absolutely. Absolutely. And I'm so glad you brought that up. That's such a great point. That project manager, account manager relationship is so, so important. If anybody's a parent out there, okay, United Front.

When we go to the children, there's no TV later, United Front. Hey, you got me? You got my back? I got your back. Right? And so that's the same approach you guys gotta go in. We got each other's back. This is where we stand. And this is what we're going after, right? 

Galen Low: I like that model. It's We are parenting together, and the client is the child, okay?

Melissa Morris: Right. 

Galen Low: The client's hey! Wait a second. 

Melissa Morris: Okay, maybe sometimes I do stand on my feet a little bit and whine and cry. 

Galen Low: It's actually a luxury. If I can get treated like my kid, that'd be great. 

Melissa Morris: I know, right? 

Galen Low:  It does raise the question, too, though, in a world where Billable hours utilization is a thing, right?

That's part of how an agency operates, how the client service world operates, and if it's not really your kind of job description or it's not like something you're measured on, how do you advise your agency clients on balancing these billable hours versus relationship building? Can agencies even measure the ROI of building this client rapport?

Without also being blinded by this like dip in utilization, you're like, Whoa, now suddenly you went from 85 percent billable to 70 percent billable because you're having conversations with a client. Like, how do you help your agency clients understand the value of relationships? 

Melissa Morris: Yeah, and some of this is which we haven't quite touched on yet is having really solid processes in place for your business.

So when I'm leading a client meeting, I should have an agenda. And I know the first five or six minutes is maybe small talk, right? We don't want to get carried away. We don't want to spend, 15, 20 minutes chit chatting about vacations. But can we just take a moment to check with them? How are you doing?

How are you doing? Oh, I remember your son plays baseball. How's his team doing? Right? Remember their spouse's names or their significant other's names. Remember their children's names for the important people in their life that they're, so and so they mentioned they're having a birthday, little things like that.

Keep track of that. And those are small things that you can do when they mentioned their Best friend's name, jot it down, right? Hey, you mentioned your best friend loves the Yankees too. Tell them they're killing it this year. Right? So just little things like that, just being thoughtful in ways like that and spending that few minutes, and then to bring it back to processes, you can also have automations, you can have checkpoints that do some of this for you. 

So have your client tell them your birthday and they automatically get a card in the mail or they get an auto email. Do you know, like it doesn't have to be, we think it has to be these grand things and it really doesn't. Just a simple email like that can go a long way. Check ins even just, how are we feeling?

How's work going? Can I support you in a better way? Like I love an automated questionnaire that goes out midway through an agreement that just says, Do you feel like we're meeting your goals? Is there something I can be doing better? When am I doing that feels good? What can I change? Even just being heard in that way helps nurture that relationship.

And then what you can get back from that is golden. Oh, we're doing good. We're on track. Oh, something's not feeling right for them. Okay, let's get on a quick call. So we just give them a platform to be heard and share their thoughts on the process, which is an automated form. Easy. 

Galen Low: I like that. And, like sometimes in my head, like I don't know.

We all get marketed to, and you have the, you get those marketing automation emails that feel cold, or they forgot to put in the right variable. So it says, hi, first name, just checking in about that thing. I'm trying to sell you. And you're like, wow, that's so cold and impersonal. I don't want to do that to my projects.

But actually what you're saying is it's the thoughtfulness and care that just gets put into a process because you care because you do want to hear back from them and you're not just trying to sell them, it will probably lead to good things, but. Really, it's sort of, micro things can actually make a big difference.

And then you can also blend some of this relationship management into the work. I think people think they're like, Oh my gosh, well, I have to go and spend four hours building my pinboard of the family tree of my clients, and have a dossier, that's going to take time. I'm not gonna be able to build that time.

I need to go golfing. I need to hit the golf club, like with my clients. And we had to do 18 holes in order for me to do this. Like I don't have time. It doesn't have to be big. It can be smaller. It just has to guide the work. 

Melissa Morris: Absolutely, and I've even done small things where if I know a client is just really underwater, right, they had to let go of a team member, they've got someone I know they're putting in long days, I'm going to shoot them a Starbucks gift card.

Just, here you go, ten bucks, easy, no utilization, not a big thing I know you've got a lot going on right now, and they're always like, Oh, thanks, like just knowing that I was Paying attention, right? I'm paying attention goes a long way. 

Galen Low: This is sort of an off the cuff question, but with the clients that you work with, do you often see a project manager who has a bit of a budget to do relationship management?

Or does that kind of sit more with account managers? Or is everyone just out of pocket, but they get a word in terms of like getting the KPIs? 

Melissa Morris: No, I think I do see a lot of agency owners that do have some small budget for things of this nature to send a little gift card or to send a welcome package during onboarding those sort of things.

So I think when it comes to that, I do think that should be something that, overall the agency or business has addressed. I don't think anybody should feel pressure to do that. Out of their own pocket, and it wouldn't even have, that's something I like to do, but it could even just be an email that says, Hey, I know you've been really swamped and we talked about you getting that to me on Friday.

It actually isn't going to change my workflow. If you get it to me Tuesday morning. Right? Like it's okay, right? Check with your project manager first. Don't change timelines. But I think the point is we can just do small things to let our clients know that we're thinking about them and that they're important to us and it doesn't have to take a lot of time and it doesn't have to take a lot of money.

Galen Low: Love that. We've been talking about I don't know, pleasant clients and client relationships. Folks that, yeah, it might not always be cozy and good and nice, but you know, there's ways that we can build trust and build this relationship. And I know that some folks are listening to, and they're saying, but sometimes clients just suck.

And it's true. There are bullies out there. There are toxic clients. There are some clients that just simply are the worst. And yeah, we could invest a lot of time sort of building up the relationship, but they might not actually be good for culture, mental health, business in general. And what do we do there?

Melissa Morris: Yeah. So I do believe sometimes there are just bad clients and this is probably going to come as a shock to some people, but. You can fire clients. 

Galen Low: Ooh. 

Melissa Morris: It's allowed.

Galen Low: I want to dive into that more. I mean, gosh, that's another one. That's potentially another podcast episode. But maybe we hint at it a little bit. Who can fire a client? Because I know a lot of project managers out there just went, Oh, yes, please. Yeah. Can we fire them all? 

Melissa Morris: All of them. All of them. All of the clients. Done. 

Galen Low: Yeah. They got to go. 

Melissa Morris: Yeah. Yeah. 

Galen Low: How does that decision get made? 

Melissa Morris: Yeah, so it's definitely not one you make lightly, right? This whole conversation has been about nurturing your clients. And so there should definitely be a lot of internal checkpoints and conversations before you ever get to the point of considering firing a client.

And this is where good processes, policies will really play an important role. So you can come back to, are we on scope? Are we being good communicators about timeline? Are we being good communicators about budget? Are we doing everything we can? And make sure you're being clear about it because sometimes you think you're being clear and you're really, you're not being clear, right?

Well, I told him I needed it as soon as possible. That's not clear, right? Tuesday by 11 a. m. is clear. So I always recommend you're taking those steps first. Are we being very clear? Have we had a conversation with the client, like a realignment call? Have we gotten them on the phone and said, we want to revisit scope.

We want to revisit. We're not going to say boundaries necessarily to them, but what working hours are, right? Whatever, however they may be in violation we may want to have a conversation with them about tone or who they're reaching out to. We want you to have the best point of contact. The best way to do that is always reach out to your account manager.

We can't have you messaging the project manager and the design team for additional time. They're not going to know. So the best way to get you the best answer. So really address what are the problem points. Have we been very clear with them? On how we can course correct, how we had conversations, how we given them time, how did they receive that information?

So lots of conversations along the way. And then at that point, if things are just still really not working well, the client is just not on board with this and just continuing to push boundaries, scope, whatever that looks like, then you do need to take it to leadership, whether that's. the owner directly, a middle person.

And then of course always you have to look back at your contract, right? Yes, I say we can fire clients, but only if your contract says that you can as well, right? Like you always want to make sure legally you're fulfilling all of your obligations, which comes back to good processes. Do you have a clear contract?

Do you have a clear scope statement of work? So as long as all of that, And, legally we're doing what we're supposed to do, then yeah, you take it to leadership and let that decision get made there. 

Galen Low: I appreciate that due diligence and like the gravity of the decision too. It's are we doing everything we can?

Because it is possible for an agency to make a client a bad client by thinking that they're actually doing a good job when they're actually not, turn the mirror on yourself first and then okay. Now let's move the conversation forward. 

Melissa Morris: Absolutely. 

Galen Low: It's funny because this sort of quote or a thing that I was told pops to mind, right? No one trains a client to be a good client. So there's that thing too. And that's a whole different thing as well. 

But I want to circle back on something you said earlier, actually something you've been saying throughout, there's such good tips about relationship management. And I know a lot of folks are like, no one trained me to do this.

I didn't know I could buy a gift card or it was okay to send an email to check in. If my client's having a hard time with restructure, no one taught me to quote unquote, walk the halls. I think maybe account managers probably do get trained this way, but anyone outside of that role, like a project manager, if they want to learn more about some of these like techniques and like the skills needed to nurture relationships, where can they go?

Melissa Morris: Yeah, that's a really great question because this isn't something I feel like that is taught or shared. I always think about it. I think we can overcomplicate it, though. Just think about any relationship. What is any relationship? How is that successful? Well, I'm clear. I'm kind. I pay attention. I show up.

Right? So I think even just not overcomplicating it and just remembering that your clients are humans. And they have, I guess you can think of that saying to everybody's, got something going on, you don't know anything about or walk a mile in their shoes, and then you'll know. And it's important to, with the internet, like we're like, we're not geographically independent anymore, right?

So we are working with people in different time zones, with different backgrounds, with different cultures, different continents at times. So sometimes what's feeling oh, they're very short. Just culturally, maybe that's how it is, right? And that's not anything negative. That's, they don't mean anything by it.

So I think trying to keep that in mind too, which is just where it comes back to communication. So in that instance, you can say, I just wanted to check in. So I make sure everything's feeling good. Do you feel like we're making good progress? Everything's on track. Yeah, everything's great. We're good to go.

Okay, then don't read into their emails, right? Don't take them for anything more than they're just an email, right? 

Galen Low: I had a client who would respond with, fine, period. For us, it was like, oh, that seemed really disappointed because we would say that. We'd be like, fine. But actually, they just went, fine, that's fine.

Melissa Morris: That's fine, I know. This man I worked with years ago, talk about just stone faced all the time. And I had to bring him the printed copy of the ads and stuff. This was years ago and I worked in the agency. And I would literally bring this man these ads and he would go, okay. And I mean, at least 40 to 60 seconds of silence.

Face not moving. I'm ready to check his pulse. This is how just still this man is staring at these ads and you go, these look good. That was it. I was like, okay. And I just had to get used to it. That's Waltz. You just gotta get used to it. And I doubled the work we do with him. For the first few months I worked with him, every time I was like, Oh I don't, oh gosh, he's gonna do that weird stare thing again.

Oh, no. And then it would be good. And then he started talking about how he was doing this beach body workout program and this and he'd be like, and that was just babbled, but I just came to accept that's how he was and we were just fine. 

Galen Low: I love that. No, it's really good. The relationships, right? I mean, it's nuanced, but at the end of the day, they are relationships and your clients are human. 

Melissa Morris: Exactly. Exactly. 

Galen Low: Melissa, thanks so much for spending the time with me today. It's been so much fun. So insightful. 

Melissa Morris: Yes. Thank you so much for having me on. I think this was a really great conversation. 

Galen Low: Yeah, absolutely. And we'll have you back. 

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