Launching and Scaling as a Freelance PM

[00:00:00] Michael Mordak: To the latest panel in our community event series, we’re seeing these grow and become a really valuable way for our members to engage with the experts, uh, who contribute to the digital project manager. So thank you for the feedback so far. And I want to thank everyone here today for, For spending some time with us, uh, for anyone who doesn’t know me, my name is Michael Mordak.

I’m the community product lead for the DPM community and also the host for the day. So today’s session, we’re going to focus on how to launch and scale your freelance business. And we’re going to be speaking with an all star crew of freelance panelists. Um, and first up, I’m going to introduce them here.

We’ve got Lloyd George, a talent manager at Clickish. Is it Clickish? Yeah, that’s correct. Okay. Yeah. I’m never sure if it’s like click or clique. Some just dialect differences there. Yeah. So Lloyd, you just came from holding the first ever empowered podcast conference, which took place in person in Charlotte, North Carolina.[00:01:00]

How do you ever planned an in person event before that? And, uh, like what did you learn or would you differently next time?

[00:01:06] Lloyd George: Yeah, first of all, thank you. I’m super excited to be here. Um, I’ve been like a digital project manager for most of my life. I’ve never planned anything in person. So the fact that I was planning like an in person conference and in person event was this so exciting, but also terribly terrifying.

Um, but it was such a great experience just to see like actual human beings in real life, especially after you put so much work to like bring it all together. Um, and it was such an amazing experience.

[00:01:33] Michael Mordak: That’s awesome. Love to hear that. Super cool. Um, and then next up, we’ve got Sarah Fisher. Sarah, you’re the owner and founder of Green Luna Studio.

Um, and following some, an unfortunate layoff last summer, you’re finally at the point where you’re covering a hundred percent of your bills with freelance income, which also happens to line up perfectly with this panel. Um, we’re going to get to hear all about your learnings throughout the next hour, but I’m curious to know, um, how long did it take from your [00:02:00] layoff to actually really, you know, the point where you were seriously considering freelance?

[00:02:06] Sara Fisher: Probably at that six month mark with just the way that things were going with the current job market and the opportunities that were presenting, or at least that I was finding a lot of it was through my network. And at that six month mark, it started to make way more sense to be like on my own freelance, uh, as opposed to like continuing to try and find full time employment jobs.

So. Yeah. Six months for me.

[00:02:31] Michael Mordak: Right on. I mean, I was curious. I had no idea what to, what to expect or gauge off of. It sounds a little bit longer than I would have thought, but it’s really interesting to hear. Yeah. Um, awesome. And then last time we’ve got Barbara Zurb, um, the founder and CEO of BZ Strategies.

So Barbara, you spent the past, uh, the past year working with Dr. Heather Sandison and much of that work was focused around the launch of her new book is called reversing Alzheimer’s, which is the new toolkit to improve cognition and protect brain health. Um, which is [00:03:00] probably above my reading level. The book did, the book debuted as an instant New York Times bestseller.

It was a USA Today bestseller and, uh, won many Amazon bestseller categories. I know it always feels good to see post launch success on a project, but I’m curious to know, how does this win compare given that it’s a topic that will have such a profound impact on the lives of people who are reading it?

[00:03:22] Barbara Zerbe: Well, I will say it’s written really well so that anybody, it’s very simple and basic. So it was a really great book for picking it up and reading through it. Uh, it’s interesting to have the win at the end where, you know, you go up and down throughout the whole year trying to build to get to that. And this past year I learned all the nuances of how to make a New York Times bestseller and it’s, there’s a lot that goes into getting a book on that list.

Um, so it was a great accomplishment.

[00:03:49] Michael Mordak: That’s super cool. We’ll have to do, um, An event on just how to get your book to the New York Times bestseller list. The learnings from, [00:04:00] uh, your, your, this, this past project. That’s really cool. Um, I also see a lot of guests here today, which is awesome. So if you’re a guest joining us, welcome.

Uh, we’re really happy to have you here. This is just one of a monthly, uh, one of a series of monthly sessions that we do. We run for digital project managers that are members of our community. The members also have a slew of other benefits, including templates, eBooks, mini courses, all to help you grow as a project manager.

So if you want to learn more about membership, come check us out at the digital project manager. com slash membership. And now we’re going to get to the questions because no one here came to listen to me, but we’re here to learn about freelancing, uh, which is a topic that comes up a ton in our community.

We’ve actually got a whole channel just dedicated to freelance where folks are sharing their wins. They’re sharing anything that they learn or come across news, general discussion. Um, and. We’re going to touch today on today. Everything you may want to know about when you’re considering freelance as an option for you all the way up to strategies for scaling your business.

If you are, [00:05:00] um, already up and running at the moment. Um, before we dive too deep, I wanted to start at the very top for any folks who are just dipping their toes in freelance, we’re still in that consideration stage. So I’m going to start this one off by passing it over to Sarah. And I want to know in your opinion, what are the main reasons for and against launching a freelance business?

[00:05:20] Sara Fisher: Yeah, awesome question. I, in my opinion, some of the pros, you definitely, as a freelancer, have more control over a lot of different things. Some of that being Like the types of projects that you work on, the types of clients that you want to work with, um, even down to your schedule and your days off and the times that you’re available to work on these projects, where and how you work on these projects.

A lot of those things are predetermined if you’re an employee, but as a freelancer, for the most part, depending a lot of those, you have your own voice and you can pick those for yourself. Uh, and you could really specialize [00:06:00] in something. Where people will seek you out for that specialty. Whereas if you’re an employee, you’re kind of at the whims of like, you are hired for your skillset, but you’re at the whims of whatever your employer is kind of needing and what their goals are.

But you can set your own business goals personally and kind of have more control over that. So I think it definitely comes down to control and like your preference, some of the cons and. I’ll say for the cons, it’s worth it for me, but it’s just worth noting for those of you out there who aren’t as familiar with it.

It can be tough to get started because it’s just you. There’s no onboarding or H. R. um, occasionally at some point. Freelance places that I’ve worked and had contracts with, I might get like appointed to one manager where I can kind of have those check ins, but it’s not the same, like, it’s up to me to pay my taxes.

It’s up to me to market myself. It’s up to me to, uh, Do the [00:07:00] networking and find new clients. Um, so part of that too, income can be less predictable and sometimes erratic depending on how diligent you are with marketing yourself and like your own self promotion. And I know for me, that’s, that’s what I struggle with personally.

I’ll just be completely honest. I don’t like social media. I don’t like self promoting, but it is part of it. Um, so yeah, you’ve got to really lean in. Especially for me and my. With my background, like, leaning into your network, that has been so much, I’ve gotten way more positive outcomes. working from my network than like trying to apply for things blindly.

Um, a other couple cons I would say with working freelance, there’s no employer provided benefits, like health insurance, paid time off. You got to like build that in yourself with your pricing and, um, yeah, no retirement. You [00:08:00] got to do that yourself. I’m still trying to figure some of these things out. I don’t have it like perfect, but like I’m working on it.

But it’s worth noting if you’re. Wanting to make that transition or considering it. And you do have to assume more responsibility from a business standpoint, because like I said earlier, you’re responsible for your income taxes and any kind of local or state fees and licensing. And it is different, at least here in the U S I’m not sure up in Canada, I’m sure they have their own licensing and fees and all kinds of things like that.

But I know there might be different things you have to register as a Like at the county level and the state level and then you’ve got federal so Um, you do have to figure those things out. There are great Uh, like business advisors out there that can help you and people in your network. But I’d say that’s, those are the main pros and cons that kind of float to the top for me.

[00:08:54] Michael Mordak: Awesome. And then Lloyd or Barbara, is there anything that stands out to you that you’d like to throw in there before we move on? [00:09:00]

[00:09:01] Barbara Zerbe: I think Sarah added quite a bit. That was, that was good. Yeah. It’s a lot of, um, just sort of being okay with the uncertainty of it and planning as project managers. That’s what we’re good at.

So maybe we’re better freelancers in that sense because we can plan, but sometimes like Sarah said, planning for yourself is sometimes it’s easier to do for a client than it is for your own, for your own business.

[00:09:23] Lloyd George: Yeah, and uh, Sarah, I love that you said it’s uh, it’s easier to find something that you specialize in and that’s something that you’re rewarded for as a freelancer, but It doesn’t matter often how many skill sets you develop in like a company as a w 2 employee It’s not likely that your pay is going to increase at the level at which you’re learning those skill sets

[00:09:44] Sara Fisher: Totally agree.

And I know like for me, my specialty is in creative work, like project management for creative agencies. So I can look specifically for things that fall under that rather than, you know, something that’s in a totally different, um, [00:10:00] what’s the word I just blanked in a different like sector of businesses.

[00:10:06] Michael Mordak: Yeah. So I think one thing that we’ve heard, we’ve started to kind of touch on here just naturally is, is some of the ways in which freelancers have maybe a different, a bit of a different makeup or mindset from people who prefer, you know, full time employment. And I think Lloyd, you point, yeah, use the word W 2 and for anybody who’s not joining from the States, W 2 would be like a full time employee.

Um, oh, Galen’s posting a translation in the chat there. Um, but I’m curious, Lloyd, uh, you know, do you, like, do you think, is it in your opinion that Any project manager could go into freelance, or are there certain characteristics, um, that one person would need to have in order to make that make that kind of a lifestyle work for them?

[00:10:43] Lloyd George: Yeah, that’s such a great question. I think it’s important that everyone explore certify and try and understand, um, your personality type and the types of things that give you anxiety or the types of things that excite you. Um, I started out as a W2 full time employee, uh, and then [00:11:00] started to realize that some of my other friends that were freelancers just had a very different life than I did.

So I was like, Oh, I wonder if I could like look into that and explore that. Um, and so my first interaction with becoming a freelance project manager was fairly easy. Like I landed my first contract while I still had my job. So I knew that like, okay, great. I have this contract. It’s at least six months.

I’m gonna take it and then I have six months to look for my next one Um, and so i’m a very risk averse person. And so the way in which I even went about doing it was fairly risk averse Um, even though I had a six month contract three months in I started looking for my next contract So I was always like ahead And I’d always make sure that they overlap.

So there was never any time where I didn’t have a contract. Now, there were a lot of things that were like out of my control. Like you may not always get paid on time and that sort of stuff. Those are the areas where I started to realize that my anxiety would increase a little. Um, and so I think those are the types of things I would think about from a characteristic standpoint.

Some people prefer a level of stability that I think gives you peace of [00:12:00] mind. And so even though your pay may not increase as drastically as a freelancer, The fact that you may have like insurance retirement funded and all of those sorts of things may be just as fulfilling and so those are the things I would think about.

I just want to end by saying though, um, just because naturally you may be a person that’s, um, risk averse or, um, Doesn’t like taking too many risks. Um, that doesn’t necessarily mean that freelance project management isn’t for you. There’s lots of skills that you’ll develop the longer you do it. And so, um, as difficult as it may be when you start, the longer you’re a freelance project manager, the easier it’ll get over time, um, to, uh, mitigate some of that risk.

[00:12:41] Michael Mordak: Yeah. I. Completely agree. I mean, I think that kind of aligns with a lot of things is it’s almost like building a muscle where, you know, you start out and you might not be the best. You might not pick it up right away, but if you can stick to it and you’re consistent and you can build some kind of routine in that, then I think that, you know, you develop those muscles and, and get better as you go along.

I [00:13:00] don’t know if that’s similar to what Barbara and Sarah, I mean, maybe you started out and you were just a pro right off the gate, but I think that maybe you’d both say that you also had to work out the muscle to get there.

[00:13:10] Barbara Zerbe: Yeah, I agree. Something, um, to to add on to what Lloyd said is Definitely, that relaxing, like getting over the anxiety of the next project or your next work is a big thing and it’s every time I get to that point, I just have to like take a breath and be like every single time this has happened to you, you’ve found something bigger, something better, like every job that ends, every client that ends typically leads into another year.

bigger client or a different client or something comes out of it. So it’s just kind of sitting with that, being able to sit with that and knowing that you have the mentality to do it. I’ve known a lot of people that have tried to freelance and they’re like, not for me. I need the stability. So really like what you said, knowing yourself and knowing your anxieties is really important to being able to.

Be a [00:14:00] freelancer.

[00:14:00] Lloyd George: Yeah, and I and I just want to add one one thought to that. I think, um, the longer you’re a freelance project manager, I think you can actually even get to a point where you have more job security and more stability as a freelancer than you would as a W2 because so many more things are in your control.

And so for me, I feel like, you know, I there is a point where and this, Just kind of changes based on the landscape. But, um, there was a point where, um, a lot of my W2 friends were being laid off, but a lot of my freelancer friends were like, Oh, I have like three gigs. So it’s like, I’m, I’m, I’m less at risk.

Um, and so I feel like, uh, depending on how you want to structure your life, you just have so much more control. Yeah,

[00:14:39] Michael Mordak: that’s

[00:14:39] Lloyd George: huge.

[00:14:40] Michael Mordak: I think, yeah, it’s almost like. Maybe it’s like a bell, a bit of a bell curve where it’s like, you know, once you have that, that network and you know, the repeat clients and that kind of thing, once you’ve kind of built up the momentum, then it becomes a bit more stable.

And, um, maybe less of a bell curve, but like an intersecting graph. I’m trying to picture it visually. I’m I need those visuals in order [00:15:00] to see how it works, but I want to, I want to shift into actually, um, setting up the freelance business because, you know, there might be people here today that are. In that process of, okay, like, you know, I’ve thought about it or maybe they’re, they’re already, you know, on their first contract, like you were Lloyd, but as you were working full time, full time.

Um, and so there are a lot of things to consider when you’re starting up and we could probably fill a couple of hours just on these considerations, but, um, I’m curious and I’m going to throw this one over to Barbara. What are the first steps you would need to take when setting yourself up as a freelancer?

[00:15:30] Barbara Zerbe: I think some of the things you need to learn, thinking back from, there is the marketing aspect of it and everybody has different approaches to that, but thinking to the financial and tax implications, and this might be different in Canada, the States, anywhere, but learning ahead of time, what you need to do is really important because it comes time to get paid.

Um, do you want to be a sole proprietor? Do you want to get paid as your business name? Because someone could say you come up with a business name, someone write you a check, you can’t deposit that [00:16:00] check because it’s not made out to your personal name. Um, so you have to, you know, there’s here in the states it’s doing business as a fictitious business name.

So you have to do that. So then you can open a bank account with your business name and have that stuff. Recently, after like 20 years of freelancing, I finally became an LLC escort. Um, Last year, so that was a huge decision and, um, I’m, the S Core actually made it more. Easy, which is kind of a new thing here in California and in the States.

Um, it’s like, it’s kind of the transition from sole proprietor to an LLC, but that was a really big, and now it’s nice. I have an accounting team. I have someone else doing all of that for me or reminding me of what I need to do every month versus at the end of the year at taxes, just like I was really good at keeping track of all my stuff, but compiling it all together at the end of the year can be, can be overbearing.

So.

[00:16:54] Lloyd George: Yeah, and I just want to add to that. I just think there’s so many benefits, uh, financially at least [00:17:00] I’m like, um from an admin perspective to like being a freelancer um both from like being able to like save your money and pay less taxes, but also I think just from like being able to like there was a time where I was able to like pick all of my trainings in certain states and I Was able to just like work remote from anywhere.

Um, and so those Some of the perks that I absolutely loved. Um, and I also think that one of the things I did when I started was, um, I just focused on like getting started. I think it can be a bit overwhelming to try and like, do all of like the legalistic things at the very beginning. And so I just kept it to like a minimum, like, Hey, I’m starting, this is how I get paid.

And the longer I did it, like each year I’d hire like a bookkeeper or a CPA. And, um, the more I hired people, they’d sort of add a little more structure. Right

[00:17:48] Sara Fisher: on. I’ll tag on to that. It’s definitely important when you’re starting out to have a financial contact, whether it’s a CPA, that’s what I would recommend [00:18:00] someone that can point you in the right direction of the things you need to be doing in your day to day.

So that like Barbara pointed out, like the end of the year, it doesn’t feel like this big scramble. Uh, it is way easier if you know those things ahead of time and you’re keeping track and like checking in on a, on a daily basis. Weekly monthly basis for where you need to be at the end of the year when it’s tax time.

Uh, same thing like having a like a legal contact just to know like, okay I’m doing this the way that I need to do business in my state because it is different like I I moved from illinois to tennessee Uh four years ago and while a lot of the things are the same like the irs is still the irs in the u.

s but statewise like In Tennessee, there are no state income taxes. So I have to pay at the federal level, but then there’s these other licensing things that I didn’t have to do in Illinois. So it really can be. A bit tricky, especially if you have clients in all different states, like depending on the amounts of [00:19:00] money that you’re moving around, it really helps to have a legal person and like a CPA on staff so that, you know, you’re doing what you need to be doing and that it’s not a surprise because no one wants a surprise.

[00:19:12] Lloyd George: And, and just, uh, just one last thought to, um, uh, in, in regards to getting started, I think to, um, when you first get started, um, there’s so many different types of freelance product management. You could have a client that isn’t a corporation and as maybe just an individual, maybe someone that’s writing a book, or you could work literally within like someone’s marketing department, but just be registered as like a 1099 contractor.

The more closer you stay to, like, more larger teams or more 1099, uh, more 1099 positions, the less sort of things you’ll need to figure out on your own. So, for example, I’ve worked with clients where they expect me to bring, like, the contract and they expect me to have, like, my own invoicing systems and all the tools I use.

And then there’s also been times where it’s like, You don’t need to do anything. We’re just plugging you into a [00:20:00] specific slot as we feel for someone that’s on maternity, but you’re still listed as like a freelance project manager. So it’s almost like I’m an employee. The only difference is just like how I get paid, so to speak.

And so it’s easier to start there and then slowly transition into more autonomy.

[00:20:14] Michael Mordak: So, yeah, so that’s actually great advice. Cause if you’re looking for that first role and you want to make it a bit of a smoother transition, that might be the easiest way to go is to look for the bigger, bigger corporations that are going to make it an easier transition to get in there.

And then as you can build up a muscle of just running, you know, your freelance business, then you start to kind of expand out to some other other areas. That’s it. A neat way to look at it. Um, Sarah,

[00:20:35] Barbara Zerbe: real quick, actually. Go for it. Sarah, you said something about surprises, which I’m like, oh, yeah, we should talk about this.

Um, saving for your, paying your quarterly taxes in the States, huge, because otherwise at the end of the year, you’d have a giant tax bill and you could get penalized. So saving for that and planning for that’s another. Think surprise to, to avoid

[00:20:55] Lloyd George: that is probably the most important thing you’ll need to do.

[00:20:59] Barbara Zerbe: Why haven’t [00:21:00] we talked about that? It’s huge. Yeah.

[00:21:02] Sara Fisher: I always like, anytime I get a client payment, I put at least 30 percent of it just into a business savings account. And then if there’s something left over at the end of the year, it’s like, then I have more business savings. I would have had if I hadn’t put anything in there.

So yeah, err on the side of saving. Saving is so important, but especially for taxes.

[00:21:22] Lloyd George: I think that’s such a mindset shift too, though. I think going from being an employee, I think that was probably the biggest thing for me is just going from being in a position where like, I kind of don’t have to worry about anything.

I get my check and it’s like, Oh, that’s how much I make. But now just even realizing like, Oh, I have to like build this into like how I price people. And I have to like plan for my insurance. When, when you really look at it, you really only keep like 50 percent of your money when you really think about it.

Um, and that was a, definitely a mindset shift for me.

[00:21:50] Michael Mordak: I’m going to use that to segue right into our next question because it’s about setting a rate. Um, and this is a question that came in from some of our members in the community. We’ve [00:22:00] got, um, a mastermind group that meets, uh, just to talk about their freelance businesses.

And so one of the questions that came up from them was, um, about rate, an hourly rate versus retainer. Um, So the person who asked was curious because they wanted to push for a retainer and kind of work away from their, uh, you know, work setting that hourly rate. Um, but I’m curious to know, so I’m going to throw this one to Lloyd first.

Would you recommend hourly retainers or, um, um, and if so, how did you go about setting one up?

[00:22:33] Lloyd George: Yeah, so I love retainers. Uh, personally, I just think that, um, the way in which I’m paid should not be dependent on like the number of hours I work. I think it should be dependent on sort of like the output. Um, and so I think just coming up with like a flat rate and I still use an hourly rate to determine what that like monthly retainer is.

Um, but I like the idea that like, Hey, You might work way less hours on some days. You might work more on other days. [00:23:00] It’s all just going to balance out And so I love the fact that like a retainer just makes it easier for me to plan What happened when I first started and I was hourly it didn’t necessarily account for all of like my The sick days I may have the vacation days, the holidays.

Um, and when I started working with a retainer, it just, I just kind of knew that it would like balance out and I could plan for my money a little better. Um, I still use the same methodology I use to come up with my rate card, which is just sort of like, Hey, this is the most I’ve ever been paid. This is the least I would take to survive.

And then I’d factor in that, like, well, you are a larger company. This is something that’s going to be fairly, it’s going to take a lot of like brain power. I’d use some of those, um, Factors I’d come up with a number and then multiply it by the number of hours. I think I’m going to work And that’s what I would charge the client The only thing I thought that was different from a retainer perspective as a freelance project manager Even though you’re getting the same amount every month was that you’re not going to get paid at the beginning Like before the work has started it starts like a traditional retainer [00:24:00] Um, you’re still paid at the end of that work in my case I was um working with the client and they pay me every single thursday So just every week I knew this amount of money was going to hit my account Um, but it was like the Thursday after I started and that worked perfectly for me just from a planning perspective.

[00:24:15] Michael Mordak: Yeah, that’s, that’s amazing. Yeah. And so I like the way that that, um, retainer kind of, one of the things we talked about earlier was just the stability of freelance. And, you know, if some, if you’re somebody who doesn’t prefer that stability, maybe looking into the option of setting a retainer is kind of a good middle ground.

If you have the ability to kind of get that set up, um, from the get go. But I also know that Barbara, you kind of take the other side of this because you kind of shy away from retainers and prefer hourly. So I’d like to hear your take on that.

[00:24:43] Barbara Zerbe: Yeah. Um, I think also listening to Lloyd talk about it again, maybe the type of work that we do, that’s different.

Sometimes I’m hired more on a consulting basement base, um, basis. So it’s not just one project I’m working on. Like there’s a lot of things. So it’s, you know, and [00:25:00] I guess it’s, it’s kind of scope creep, but it’s not scope creep because I’m not working on a specific project, but there’s always like, Oh, can you handle this too?

Oh, you can do this as well. You handle this too. So, so for me, if I only have a retainer soon, everything just I find a lot of times in retainers things have become, you know, it’s like, uh, now my hourly rate is down, you know, like half because I’m working so many extra hours. I’ve also had the opposite where I had a non profit, they had a grant, they’re like, we’re going to pay you this much.

And at the end I felt, I felt kind of bad because they were non profit and I didn’t work. I was like, that was a lot. So I’ve had both examples. Um, It’s really funny since we were talking, Lloyd, just yesterday, I had an example where I’m like, oh, a retainer might be good here because, um, I have a client, you know, they have my hourly rate and they were just like, oh, you’re too expensive for this.

And they had someone in and quote it at a flat rate. And I was like,

[00:25:55] Michael Mordak: well,

[00:25:56] Barbara Zerbe: the amount of hours it would take me to do that, it would have cost less [00:26:00] for me. But they’re looking at, you know, this one flat rate for something. So I think it really depends on you. And, um, you know, yeah, with the retainer, you might get paid more because I have been in situations.

Another thing to prep for is freelance where you might not get paid for three months after you finish the work and you’re just sitting there waiting. Um, it’s nice when it comes in lakes, it’s like Christmas. Yeah,

[00:26:22] Michael Mordak: exactly. Um, and I’m curious. So, I mean, we’re talking about potentially getting retainer set up.

Are there any. Um, tactics or strategies you’ve been able to employ that helped you get the retainer set up. Um, or like, Yeah. Just how have you had that conversation? And, um, is it just the way that you present to your rate? Like you just give them the option of flat or are there certain conversations so that you’re having,

[00:26:44] Lloyd George: you know, I, it’s so funny.

I have, uh, a tech doc where I talk about like project management stuff and that’s, I get so many questions just sort of asking me like, Hey, how do you go about doing this? Or how do you do this? And I find that like, 99 percent of like the decisions I make are just made by the client like [00:27:00] literally like when I talk to them They already have in mind sort of like the way that they want to do it So all of the times i’ve had a retainer is because they thought like they just thought that that’s what they that’s what’s best So that’s what they do And so I find that that Is normally how I get to that number.

I will say just in general though The the one thing that has helped me the most from a retainer perspective is I think it only works in your benefit If you can figure out a way to do the work that’s being asked of you a lot faster just so that Um, you’re spending the ideal scenarios that you’re spending less time to do what would take the average person 40 hours to do.

And maybe you’re doing it in 35 as an example. Um, so I think I’m, I’m personally just have a good idea of sort of like the type of work I enjoy doing, the type of work I’m good at, where I actually think I can add value. And then that kind of justifies if that’s like worth it. But there are some scenarios where I’ve been offered a retainer and I can just tell based on the work that like.

You have unrealistic expectation that this is going to take a lot longer than I can do it for. So it’s just not worth doing it. [00:28:00]

[00:28:00] Michael Mordak: Yeah. No, that’s great. And, and Galen’s posting links to your, your TikTok there for everybody who wants to check out some more videos from, from Lloyd. And I’m going to, a question just came up that I’m going to touch on here because we’re, it’s, it’s, uh, uh, relevant to the conversation.

Um, this question is asking, can you better discuss net terms? So others are aware of this delay in the payment. And I’ll throw that to anyone who wants to lead off.

[00:28:26] Lloyd George: Yeah, I’m happy to kick us off here. Um, this is probably the most difficult part about being a freelancer just because I think like, um, ideally you want to be in a scenario where you’re being paid by your client and it’s going into some account and then you’re paying yourself a percentage from that money.

Um, but when you first start, The amount you’re being paid from the client, you’ll probably need a hundred percent of that to survive. Um, and so I found that like, when I first started, that was the thing I couldn’t quite figure out. There’s been times where like some clients have paid me on like net 90, which is just, [00:29:00] it’s so insane and that’s so rare, but it does happen.

Um, and then there’s been other times where clients pay me on like net three, where it’s like, Hey, if you invoice us today, that money will be in your account in three days. Um, and so I think just like when you first start, those are the questions I didn’t know to ask just sort of like realistically. How long is it going to take me to get paid?

And it may even be in your best interest if you can to try and find another project manager that works so that you can get sort of like the inside scoop on to truly understand like pay terms.

[00:29:26] Michael Mordak: Yeah. And is that something that you would negotiate as well when you’re setting up your contract in the first place?

Barbara, I’ll let you answer that as well.

[00:29:33] Barbara Zerbe: I would say yeah, and my invoicing, and not everyone pays attention to it, but um, I say my terms are net 30, which means I invoice, I invoice at the end of the month, um, and they have 30 days to pay it. So, If they don’t pay it, I don’t do this very regularly unless something is really amiss with the client, but then I will charge like a 10 percent late fee if you don’t pay within seven days and then keep adding to that.

Um, I’ve only had to do that in rare occasions [00:30:00] where people just are those couple of bad seed clients that just kind of dropped off the face of the earth. But Um, yeah, putting that out front, um, I still have some clients that pay like the day the invoice comes and I’m just like, thank you so much. That’s amazing.

[00:30:15] Lloyd George: If you only knew how much this helps me.

[00:30:17] Barbara Zerbe: Yeah. And then other clients, you know, I know they’re good for it. It’ll come. They’re going to be another 15 days later, whatever. And you just kind of have to sit. Sit on that. And again, it’s the planning and having a savings. I would say before you go freelance, if you can have, you may not have because you may get unexpectedly laid off, but if you can have a savings built up so that you know, you can like a cushion, you know, you can go for like three to six months.

It’s really helpful.

[00:30:45] Michael Mordak: Yeah. I think that’s where that emergency fund kind of comes into play, which is something that hopefully everybody’s working toward, um, just to have that for, you know, the case of a, of a layoff like that.

[00:30:54] Sara Fisher: Yeah, and I wanted to add to that too. Um, it’s okay to add late [00:31:00] fees. It’s okay if a client or a lead thinks you’re too expensive.

I’m here to tell you, like, you are worth your hourly rate and you probably should up it if you haven’t done it recently. Um, but, um, Like you know your value and if someone wants to balk at your rate, then they’re probably not a good fit for you and they would want to pay a lot less to get a lot more out of you.

So definitely think about those things. And if you’re having a conversation with clients because I’ve seen it on both ends too where you’re like, I’ve had clients come to me and they say we use this to make all of our freelance payments and you’ll get it within X number of days when you send us our invoice.

And sometimes the client will specify a lot of what the billing will look like, but. Occasionally, like, I sometimes work with really small creative agencies where they don’t have an operations person on staff. It might be like one creative director and a couple of other freelancers and then they bring me in because they’ve got a project that’s like much bigger than they’re used to handling.[00:32:00]

Definitely think about how you want to be paid. Specify what will happen if they’re late, like, and it’s all to protect yourself and to protect them too. Like at the end of the day, you have something to deliver to them. And if you’re not getting paid, it’s like, that’s, it’s a really, really bad precedent for how the project’s going to go.

So it’s in my opinion, way better to have those conversations up front, like even before you sign a contract or they sign off on your contract, uh, as opposed to Waiting until like a red flag comes up when you’re already on the clock and you don’t really know how to approach it. Uh, so definitely think about those things.

[00:32:42] Michael Mordak: That’s awesome. Um, yeah, I want to, I want to get a little bit deeper into, uh, growing and sustaining some freelance, your freelance business, because again, we’ve had a number of members from the community ask about this one. Yeah. And again, yeah, this is another question that came from the community ahead of time.

And it’s a two parter. So I’m going [00:33:00] to throw this one to Lloyd to lead us off. But this one is going to be all about marketing. So when it comes to marketing yourself, what have you found to be working really well? And how are you making it easier on yourself? And then part two of that is going to be what have you done that you felt was a waste of time?

[00:33:18] Lloyd George: Great question. Um, I think for me what has been working really well is linkedin Um, I love tiktok just because it’s fun and it’s a hobby and that’s where I started but like linkedin For sure hands down has been like the best possible investment I can make in my business Partially just because it’s easy to find the exact person you want to talk to and so if I wanted to land number one like you could theoretically right now just go to linkedin and just search like Hiring project manager and it would show you a post of every single person that says like, hey, I’m hiring a project manager Um, so just for that fact alone, it’s just easy to find the exact person you want to talk to I also just wouldn’t cold pitch myself.

Um, I [00:34:00] would build relationships with those people and that’s kind of how I use linkedin So it’s like just make a make it like a daily routine where it’s like every single day For the rest of my life i’m going to connect with two to three people on linkedin Every single day. Um, and literally I wouldn’t like ask him for anything.

I just say like, Hey, it looks like you also love project management. We’d love to connect and keep in touch. I found that like a lot of project managers, when they are open roles, um, or open freelance roles, people always just share them with their friends. And there’s almost like this sub community of PMs that refer each other stuff and you want to be in that inner circle.

And so that’s how I’ve been leveraging LinkedIn.

[00:34:34] Michael Mordak: And then I’m curious too, because you also have, um, kind of created this bit of a, you know, content creator persona around yourself. And you do a lot of that stuff, um, you know, kind of thing you’re posting about often. Have you been able to find work through some of that work you’ve been doing creating content?

And is that the purpose that you pursued that? How are those, how are those two things working together?

[00:34:54] Lloyd George: Absolutely. Um, so initially when I started posting content, it was sort of like, gosh, I wonder just like [00:35:00] what would happen if I just made a post every single day. And it’s almost has become kind of like a running joke now.

So one of the posts I made, for example, was sort of like, hey, I landed this freelance client. Um, it was a great big client. Here’s what I was supposed to do. And here’s why it failed miserably here that the three things I did that just made this like an epic failure And literally after making that post I had like a ton of people like dm me and say like hey If you’re looking for your next contract, we’d love to like introduce you or we’d love to have conversations Uh, and it just shows you just I think by like number one being vulnerable number two Posting and being like visible and being like top of mind for people There’s lots of people that can’t help you and want to help you and the more often you post you just kind of stay top Of mind for them Not even like mentioning like highlighting your actual expertise because by the time you do hop in the call with someone They’ve been seeing you post for like three months.

They kind of trust that you know what you’re talking about So it’s just a lot easier to sell. I think

[00:35:53] Michael Mordak: yeah, that’s awesome And then I’ll throw part two to to either Sarah or Barbara whoever wants to jump on it But what have you done that in the [00:36:00] path that you felt like it’s just a waste of your time

[00:36:06] Sara Fisher: for me right now at least Facebook no like LinkedIn has been way more um Productive for me. I get like a higher, like way more responses that end up and turn into something kind of like how Lloyd had presented, how LinkedIn has been. Uh, and also groups like DPM, I’m in a couple of other like professional development groups and people notice when you’re actively taking part in conversations and answering questions.

Like I’ve had people cold reach out to me because they were like, Creeping in the forums and they were like, Hey, I really saw, liked your response to this one question about how you set up a sauna for a client. Uh, we have a contract position opening up soon. Would you like to chat about it? Like, yeah, what you say matters and what you put out there matters.

[00:37:00] So yeah, for me, Facebook was not the place to be. I was creating content for it. And like, I actually just recently. Deactivated my Facebook account because I wanted to take a break from it. Like, I know I probably should have it up, but it was something that was just a boundary I needed to do. Like no one’s reaching out to me here.

Like it’s okay if I want to focus on these other two things.

[00:37:24] Michael Mordak: Yeah. I think when you’ve got so much on your plate, You’ve got to consider the, the Pareto law of, you know, 80 percent of your business is coming from 20 percent of your, your effort. So where can you lean into that and kind of focus on that? Um, and then I’m going to, I’m going to shift.

So that’s, I mean, that’s kind of like the, you know, actively marketing side of things, but. I want to talk a little bit about like some, some of the passive ways that you might market yourself. And I think this is something that Barbara, you’ve got more experience in and have leaned into throughout your, you know, I think over 20 years of, of working as freelance.

Um, how much effort are you putting into things like, you know, [00:38:00] promoting or like encouraging word of mouth or securing repeat work from clients, um, or just networking to kind of grow your professional connections.

[00:38:08] Barbara Zerbe: Yeah, I’ve always been, even working in marketing as a project manager or previously I was a graphic designer and I always used the term the cobbler’s son has no shoes because I was a graphic designer and my website was never done and I never had things because every time I’d get a lull and start working on something for myself I’d get more work.

Um, I’m already having that happen right now actually or when clients wind me down and I was like okay now I gotta get my stuff in I probably am picking up another client that’ll be full time again. Um, so I think a lot of it is networking and not in the traditional sense. I’m actually really bad at small talk.

I’m really bad at like going up to people and just. chatting coldly with them. So I think it’s a doing a really good job at the places that you work at and connecting with the people that you work at because you never know who’s going to [00:39:00] refer you. Um, and I think it’s also lifting other people up and helping other people around you because They’re little favors, but, or they’re not favors.

If you work with really good people, like they will refer to you and you all like, like Sarah mentioned in the DPM group, Oh, I noticed you had this comment. You create this community of people who really like working together. And when they go to another job, they want to hire you. Um, it’s how I got my first freelance job actually was I was working at a company.

My manager left, went to another company and she’s like, could you do some side work for me? Because I love what you do. Um, right now. This new client that’s coming in. I brought in a web designer to their, um, to my client that I was working with. He’s getting tons of work with them. And now he’s like, I had my partner in this other client.

He’s like, this would be great for you. So he’s bringing me back into them. And so that kind of networking, I mean, it takes a long time to establish, but you can, even if you’re already working in a full time [00:40:00] position, you can start there. you know, the vendors you work with, those are the people that, you know, you want to establish a good rapport with and just sort of, um, especially in the remote world, it’s harder to make these connections, but just keep things a little personal and care about people.

And if people really like working with you, they’ll keep working with you and keep referring you.

[00:40:21] Michael Mordak: That’s awesome. Yeah. Um, Lloyd, did you have something to add there? I thought. Yeah.

[00:40:26] Lloyd George: Um, I, I was just going to say, I can’t, uh, I just want to overemphasize the importance of like those relationships. I think like that’s for me has been like the number way I number one way I’ve gotten work is just like past people I’ve worked with past companies I’ve worked with.

Honestly, if you just started by like reaching out to all of your past employees and just saying, Hey, I know I don’t work there anymore, but if you ever have a need for this, I’m happy to do it on a part time basis or a contract basis. Like that initially opens the door. Um, also reaching out to past coworkers that like that all makes such a big difference.

[00:40:57] Michael Mordak: Yeah, that’s, that’s awesome. Um, and [00:41:00] then the, during our conversation yesterday, there was one other thing that came up, um, toward the end of our chat. And I’m going to pass this one back over to Lloyd because you brought up this idea of freelance fatigue, which I think some people might hear might be a little interested in.

Um, and I could explain it, but you did a really good job yesterday. So I’ll just, I’ll let you just talk to you. Like what is freelance fatigue and, um, how do you, how can you kind of plan ahead for this to try and set yourself up

[00:41:25] Lloyd George: for success? Yeah. Yeah, great question. Um, when you start as like a freelancer, um, you’re so enthused and you’re almost planning for it.

So you have maybe like the mental capacity to do it. You maybe have like a little money saved You’re maybe just like got off insurance from like your job So there’s just like everything is like in your favor But the longer you become a freelancer it becomes a lot harder if you’re not planning Um, it becomes a lot harder to sustain at that level of like commitment to being a freelancer You I remember when I first became a freelancer around like the eight month mark, I got to a stage where the [00:42:00] only client I had wasn’t paying me.

They like, I guess like someone got married or they went out of office. So I didn’t get paid for two months. I didn’t have health insurance. I couldn’t go on vacation. And then it was like holiday seasons. It was just like lots of days off. So I wasn’t making any money. And I just remember saying like, this sucks.

This is so hard. Um, and so I can’t possibly imagine feeling like how I felt in that moment. For the next six months, you know, and so I think, um, those are some of the things I would think about if I was going into freelance product management, just sort of like, how can I, um, accurately plan just to even have the mental capacity, um, to be a freelancer, knowing that this is going to be like, A long term commitment or a long term journey.

Um, what are the things, what are the things that would need to take place for me to feel comfortable doing this for two years? Uh, because it’s not realistic to think that like you can go two years without health insurance or go two years without being paid consistently, so on and so forth. And I think that parameter will be different for everyone.

Uh, but I think at least [00:43:00] knowing what like your threshold is, like, what are the things that would need to happen for you to feel like, okay, I can do this for a year. Sure. I might not get paid consistently all the time, but like, I can, I can stomach that for a year, you know?

[00:43:11] Michael Mordak: Awesome. Okay. That’s, that’s, I mean, I really appreciate you explaining that concept.

Cause I was something that I wasn’t really had heard of before, but it was really interesting when you brought it up. And I think that definitely rings true to some other people as well. Um, and I just want to

[00:43:24] Lloyd George: add one last thought to that. I was hanging out with my brother a few months back on my last PM contract.

And I just remember thinking, I was like, gosh, I need to, I needed to find like a new health insurance. And right when I was talking to him, he had just got a new job. And he was telling me about all his amazing startup perks. He was like, yeah, they pay for me to go to the gym. They pay for me to go to the sauna.

Life is great. And I was just like, gosh, you know, maybe I should go get a job. And so I think that is sort of like what I’m referring to that, like that threshold for everyone is going to be different. Um, and so you just need to kind of know, like, what is like your level of tolerance, you know,

[00:43:58] Michael Mordak: And if you want to, you know, [00:44:00] be able to pay for a sauna and cool plunge room in your office, you got to work that into your rate, you know?

Right, exactly. Exactly.

[00:44:07] Barbara Zerbe: Yeah, I have gone in that situation, like had those things. And like, I have gone back into working jobs and then just Yeah. It’s worth it to me to have the autonomy, not to have all those wonderful, those little perks.

[00:44:21] Michael Mordak: And

[00:44:23] Barbara Zerbe: those perks are bribes to me, they’re like, just working the grind, you know, for somebody else’s benefit.

Um, I prefer, yeah. To be able to be like, no, this is my schedule. Nope. I’m going on vacation this time. Um, and, and building in those sick days, those downtimes for yourself, because. When you talked about this yesterday, Lloyd, I was same thing. I was like, Oh yeah, I used to just sit on holidays and be like, everyone has a day and I’m stuck working.

Cause if I don’t work, I don’t get paid. And now it’s like, no, I’m taking the time off. My rate factors that in now. Yeah, I second that. [00:45:00]

[00:45:00] Michael Mordak: I like looking at benefits as professional bribes. I think that’s a nice little twist on it. If you want to motivate yourself to push yourself for freelance. Um, That’s super funny, but I think it ties back also to like in the mindset We were talking about earlier too and like what do you value more?

Is it is it the professional bribes or the benefits or the things like that? Or is it the autonomy and being able to kind of set your your own schedule? So they all kind of ties back on into the beginning of that conversation as well. And then sorry Lord, I cut you off

[00:45:30] Lloyd George: Uh, and no, I was just gonna say, I think, uh, one of the things that I found most valuable about being a freelancer amongst myself and my friends were just that, like, um, when I got into it, part of it was that, like, I was also trying to build my business on the side.

And so, um, it was very hard to, to have, like, a full time job. Day job, like a W2 employee and builds like my side hustle on the side. But the moment I became a freelance project manager is like my daily income. I could control that. Like, Hey, I’m going to be working from like 7am to 2pm and then doing my own stuff on the side or [00:46:00] posting on tech talk or whatever.

Um, and so I just think when you think about it from that perspective, like the aspiring entrepreneurs, the, the mothers that can now only work 10 hours, there’s just so much flexibility and I, and that’s the thing I love the most that you kind of get to control your own destiny a little bit. Love that.

That’s it.

[00:46:16] Michael Mordak: Yeah. Go for it, Sarah.

[00:46:18] Sara Fisher: And something that really has Been so beneficial for me doing like pursuing this freelance project management thing. I do other things too. Like I’m a yoga instructor. I’m a Pilates instructor. I don’t like doing the same thing all week, every single hour. And I was telling Lloyd and Barbara, when we were chatting last week, like I don’t believe in the 40 hour work week.

And if I can avoid burning myself out, because that’s always what happens. If I work 40 hour work weeks. Uh, I’m gonna do it and I need that variety and You know, if I was working full time employment, 40 hour week, W 2 employee, I wouldn’t have, like, the [00:47:00] energy to bring to my local community to teach yoga and Pilates and, like, do things in, like, the local arts environment, which I’m also active in.

So, I like having that variety. I need that balance. For myself so that I don’t get burned out. And so that I do feel like, like the passion stays there if I’m able to get like that magic balance. And it’s not always in balance. Sometimes I will have to put more work into something that I maybe don’t want to, but because I have bills to pay, I have to do it, uh, but that’s always what I’m striving for.

It’s like, I need that balance. I, I want to move slower in life after like moving so fast and not having any agency and like, The hours that I work. So for me, freelancing has, it does come down to having that agency about my own life. Uh, and it’s, it’s sad that, that that’s even a thing in the world right now, but it totally is.

And, uh, that’s what has like inspired me to do the freelance side. [00:48:00] One thing about it anyway.

[00:48:02] Michael Mordak: No, those are fantastic, fantastic points. And I think a lot of people relate because you’re getting, uh, some comments and applause

[00:48:08] Sara Fisher: from

[00:48:10] Michael Mordak: people. So I think, you know, they, it’s something that people can relate to. I mean, yeah, we’re not really built to sit in a chair for 40 hours a week and, and, and hack away at work or stand if you have the luxury of doing that.

Um, but to your point, yeah, there’s, it’s important to just put yourself ahead of all that. Um,

[00:48:27] Barbara Zerbe: Can I add one thing to what Sarah said too? Because I totally agree with you and I’m so happy now to like have time to do volunteer work and with, you know, work in other passions like with a travel organization, but I will say when I started out I did not have that and that like, um, fear of where the next job is coming and not where the next paycheck is coming from and I would just always jump immediately on whatever any client.

And I had this fear of like, if I wasn’t up and working at 8am and didn’t answer their email, [00:49:00] they would, um, think that I wasn’t working. I also started freelancing and working from home long before remote work was a thing. So people would just think that I was twiddling people like, what do you do all day?

You know, sit at home and do nothing. So I felt like I constantly had to prove myself, but in the beginning, there is that, at least for me, there was a lot of that fear. I don’t jump on this right now and do everything and constantly be at my client’s whim. Um, I’m going to, you know, I’m not going to get this project or I’m not going to get paid.

So, maybe if somebody can learn from that wisdom and know that you don’t have to do that, you can be in control of your schedule. And have like where Sarah is coming from like, no, this is my opportunity to have my schedule.

[00:49:44] Michael Mordak: Awesome. I love that. I love that. Um, I want to be aware that we have got just under 10 minutes left.

Um, and I know that there are going to be some folks who’ve got to peel away to their next meeting. So we’re going to do some Q and a in a second here, but I just want to say, if you are going to have to rush out of here, thanks for, thanks for joining us today. Um, being a part of this [00:50:00] conversation. Um, if you.

Enjoy this chat. Don’t forget to RSVP to our next event, which is going to be an AMA session with Mark Burnett, AKA the ambidextrous PM. Uh, he’s going to be talking about ideas from his recent book launch and as well as, um, how he project managed his way out of an army amputation. And if you’re as curious about that as I am, I think you should RSVP.

Um, uh, yeah. And then also if you’re a guest today and interested in continuing the discussion, becoming a member, check us out at the digital project manager. com slash membership, which Galen just posted a link to. Um, and now we’re going to get into some Q and a time. So, okay. Questions that came up during the call here.

This one is from Eric. Um, and he wanted to get some context. He was asking, do each of you define project management differently? That is one of you may do more corporate or government contracts that require a very formal PM role as opposed to some solo or small business or creatives who define PM as just someone who [00:51:00] Someone to manage the tasks to get things done.

And I’ll let anybody pick that one up.

[00:51:06] Barbara Zerbe: I’ll answer. And, um, I saw another pop chat come up and it’s just, it’s something that I went through so I can maybe answer two questions at the same time. Um, I say, yes, 100 percent project management can simply be managing small little projects. Um, that’s how I got into it.

And then, or it can be you’re hired. By Boeing to project manage, you know, a really specific, very, very technical thing, and I think someone asked about getting a PMP, and I think that is a very personal decision on what kind of projects you want to do. I went, I transitioned from being a graphic designer that ended up doing a ton of project management just because I was good at it and got sick of being the last person in the line.

Um, Projects that were disorganized and then decided to do a career shift and went and got my master’s in project management. And I was deciding whether to get my PMP or some other [00:52:00] certification. And I just found that the type of projects that I want to manage are much more fluid and don’t require that kind of certification.

But if you do, I think maybe you want to do a lot of contract work, um, like very specifically with big companies, I think a PMP or a specific certification, uh, it would be really helpful.

[00:52:20] Lloyd George: Yeah, and I just want to add to that. I 1000 percent agree with everything you just said, Barbara. And I think to the project management landscape is changing just a little bit just because so much of what I think we did, let’s just say, five to 10 years ago was so technical versus a lot of what we’re doing now with the digital landscape becoming more popular with social media becoming more of a thing.

More brands are hiring project managers to oversee creative work versus technical work. Um, I remember maybe like 3 or 4 years ago, I was in a meeting at like a company that did like creative. Well, they, they built websites. Um, and I remember they were looking at project management candidates, but they weren’t considering any of the [00:53:00] candidates that had a PMP because they found that, um, project managers that were.

Over qualified at difficulty, sort of working in this fluid, um, creative sort of environment versus maybe like project managers that were almost like had no experience, but we’re able to learn this, like, informal way of project management. And so I think emphasizing what you want, what type of work you want to do will be a great, uh, determiner for whether you should get your PMP or not.

[00:53:26] Sara Fisher: Quick show of hands. I agree with all of that, Barbara and Lloyd.

[00:53:30] Michael Mordak: Quick show of hands, who here has their PMP? Nobody. Okay. There you go.

[00:53:38] Sara Fisher: I come from a very similar background as Barbara too. Like majored in graphic design and undergrad and did animation and kind of naturally fell into the project management side because like Barbara, I was like the one that was figuring things out, staying late.

Like, why isn’t there a system in place? How are you all getting your work done? This is wild. Um, and I’ve just found in at least the [00:54:00] path I’ve taken, and it is very like specific to me that. I haven’t needed the PMP. I’ve considered it. Um, and I think for me, I do have an interest to kind of get more into the technical side, like in the development, uh, web and app development, and I’ve considered getting some note or not notifications, that’s the wrong word, certifications, uh, and like scrum and that kind of thing.

So, yeah, it just depends on what you’re looking to get out of it personally. And if it is required, cause some places like. I don’t think PMP has ever been required at a creative agency that I’ve ever seen or worked at or applied to, but I know it’s definitely valued in other industries like construction and healthcare and that kind of thing.

Government work.

[00:54:50] Michael Mordak: I love that. That’s, that’s super helpful. Um, we’ve got three minutes. I’m going to do let’s okay. I’ll do one really quick one. And then I think we’ve got time for one more first. Lloyd, where’s your hat from? [00:55:00]

[00:55:00] Lloyd George: This is a company called the published press. It’s run by a guy named Colin and Samir.

They’re YouTubers.

[00:55:05] Michael Mordak: There

[00:55:05] Lloyd George: you go.

[00:55:06] Michael Mordak: That’s going to be helpful for Selena. Now, Selena, you can go check out the site. Um, and then, uh, the other one I wanted to get to is from a name that I’m probably going to mispronounce. Eliza? Eliza? I don’t know. My main question is around pricing. I have been working with some small studios that need fractional help on some projects.

It means that I might need to be available the whole day, um, as the first point of contact for the team and the client, but I can’t charge for the whole day. What would be the best approach?

[00:55:35] Barbara Zerbe: Oh, that’s a tough one. That is a tough

[00:55:37] Sara Fisher: one. I’m like, well, if you can’t charge for the whole day, I would say no, but if you’re in a situation where you do want to work with them, uh, I guess think about what you’re doing.

Like floor is when it comes to pricing, like what is the absolute lowest you would work for? And then try to aim for above that if you’re in a situation where you like you do want to work with this client Maybe it gets you [00:56:00] referrals and you have a really good working relationship but at the same time like You’re worth your hourly rate.

And it, it pains me to think of like someone working a full day and not getting paid for eight hours worth when you have to be available, when you could otherwise be doing something else that Barbara Lloyd, do you want to add onto that?

[00:56:18] Barbara Zerbe: I just thought my mom was a nurse and I’m thinking back to like when she had to be on call and she would get paid.

Um, it’s like when she did get called, so she had to be available, but she could do other stuff because she was. You know, at home. But then when she did get called in, then she got paid time and a half for the time that she worked. So maybe it’s like, Okay, I’ll be available to stay, knowing you can do other stuff.

But then, if you do have to work an hour or so, your rate is higher than the other rate as a trader. I don’t, that’s just off the top of my head. I think that’s a creative approach. I like that

[00:56:50] Lloyd George: one. Yeah. I like that. Yeah, nothing to add. I agree with that. Right on.

[00:56:55] Michael Mordak: Super cool. Um, and with that, we’ve got a minute left.

[00:57:00] So, um, what I’ll do is, um, Sarah and Barbara, you’re both in the, in the Slack channel there. Lloyd, I’m going to send you an invite. We’ll get you in there. And any questions that we, we can’t get to here, cause there are a few others. Um, I would love to just bring into the channel. We can continue to continue the discussion there.

Um, But for now, for this panel, that’s going to be it for today. Cause I know everyone’s going to have to jump to their next one. Um, next meeting. So to everyone in the audience, thank you again for spending this hour with us. And thank you for contributing to the vibrancy of the call and the community.

This was great. Um, as I mentioned, we’re going to keep the conversation going in Slack. And if you’d like to join us, then I will see you there. Um, if you can, uh, and you have a second, please fill out the feedback survey that I think Galen has already posted in there. Um, and let us know, um, how we did today.

And if there’s a topic that you’d like to see us cover in the future, then that really helps us out because we can, uh, take a look into what people are wanting to, to learn more about. Um, and then, of course, a huge thank you to our panelists for volunteering their time today. [00:58:00] Um, Sarah, Lloyd, Barbara, thank you so much.

This was a ton of fun and, uh, I really appreciate you sharing your expertise with us today.

[00:58:06] Sara Fisher: Happy to be here. Thanks, everyone.

[00:58:09] Michael Mordak: Thanks for having

[00:58:09] Sara Fisher: us.

Thanks. Transcribed