DPM - Strategic Value Panel - June 2024

Galen Low: [00:00:00] So, hey everyone, welcome to our panel discussion on how project managers can deliver strategic value in a generative AI world. We do events like this every month as a way for our members and our VIP guests to engage directly with the experts who contribute to the Digital Project Manager. For those of you who don't know me, my name is Galen, I'm the co founder of the Digital Project Manager, and I will be your host for today.

And I've also got with me an amazing crew of some of Project Management's leading voices. Uh, we've got Gene Kang, we've got Ordana Sarjant, and very shortly we will have Mukhtar Khadiri. Um, we'll do formal introductions, uh, shortly. But first I thought maybe we could just lean into one of our traditions.

Um, and that tradition is just let us know in the chat where you're joining from. And what your biggest project management challenge has been lately, or just work challenge. Uh, it doesn't have to [00:01:00] be a long description. Even just give me two words that sum it up. Uh, it could be scope creep. Could be communication breakdown.

Could be stakeholder management. Could be AI being misunderstood and coming after my job. I think that was more than two words. Uh, and while you do that, I'm just going to go through a little wee bit of housekeeping. Uh, all right. So, surprise, surprise, this session is being recorded, and we might use some clips from it on our website and on social.

Uh, you can keep your camera on if you want, or you can turn it off. Uh, I can't remember how we've got the whole event set up. Um, I've kept your microphones muted for now, but please feel free to raise your hand or send me a message if you want to come on stage and ask a question. Um, and feel free to just keep the chatter going in chat, even if it's unrelated to what we're talking about in the panel.

Um, we don't find that rude at all. And honestly, in my opinion, we're all experts here. I'm seeing some names. I know like some of y'all are experts legit. Um, but we want to have that conversation bubbling, those side conversations. That's part of the value of these [00:02:00] things. Uh, We are going to break this up into kind of two things.

Um, but it's going to be pretty informal. So I'm, I've got a bunch of questions that I want to ask the panel. Um, and then we're going to do some more interactive Q and A. Uh, so if you have a question and you want me to get to it, um, pop it in the chat, Michael's backstage, and he's going to help me not lose those in the thread.

Um, and we will have a time, uh, at the end to just, um, get everybody's as many questions that we, as we can answer from the audience. Because, um, I think a lot of the time that's where we get some of the juiciest bits. Um, all right, we looking at the names, I think we have a few guests here today. So if that's you welcome, um, this is just one of a series of monthly sessions with a digital project manager.

Uh, we hold it for our members, but like we often widen the net a little bit because, uh, we just have too much fun and we want to share. Uh, if you want to learn more about us, head over to the digital project, manager. com slash membership. I'll do a little plug later [00:03:00] on, but in the meantime, I thought maybe we could just get into it.

Uh, let me have a peer at the chat and also, um, I'm going to give Mukhtar just a little bit of time, uh, so that, uh, we can untangle him there. It might be a tech thing, uh, but really exciting to see some of these locations. Thank you for folks who are joining from, uh, other side of the pond from me. Uh, I'm in Toronto, Ontario, Canada.

Um, and I see some folks from the UK. Uh, thank you very much. I know it's, um, you know, it's okay. Almost your end of day here. Past your end of day there. So thank you very much. I appreciate you. All right. Um, let's dive in. Today's session is all about how project managers can deliver more strategic value in a generative AI world.

Um, and I thought maybe we'll just dive in, uh, and let's, let's, let's meet our panelists. Uh, so first up we have. XFigma program manager, career coach, and general good human, uh, Miss Jean [00:04:00] Kang. Uh, Jean, you recently launched a course on LinkedIn Learning about using AI for project management. And I was going to put you on the spot and just ask you, what is the strangest piece of feedback that you've gotten about it since it's gone live?

Jean Kang: Hmm. Thank you for the fun plug. Uh, so it's not that strange, but I got, I got some pushback in the sense that they said, Um, why is it specifically for project management? Why can't it just be like a general a I like tutorial? And so I thought that was very, very interesting. And, um, I didn't have the opportunity to say back to him, but I think as I develops, we're going to see specific use cases for different niches for different industry.

It's just gonna it's bound to happen.

Galen Low: So that is juicy. And I think we will get into that as well. Thanks for being here. Um, next up we've also, uh, got, um, tell, tell me if I'm underselling you or Donna, but [00:05:00] we've got fortune 500 digital program manager and bad SPM coach or Donna Sargent, uh, it's always a pleasure having you on.

We were talking in the green room about, uh, just how much fun it is having you as part of these events. Um, I was creeping you on Insta and I noticed that you had just hosted an event on data and AI for your compatriots at American Express. I was wondering if you could share just what your most inspiring takeaway from that experience was.

Ordonna Sargeant: So I think the first of all, thank you. Thank you for having me here. Really excited to be here. It's always a lot of fun. Your panels are always fun. Um, and, uh, I think one of the best takeaways from the data and AI summit that we had, um, at American Express was, uh, there's just so much that we can do with Gen AI.

And there are so many PLCs happening currently, so they're working on different ways that we can use AI, whether it's to monitor risk or to [00:06:00] understand our customers better or personalization, but there's so many different ways that they're looking at it. But, of course, we are risk adverse. So we are, we are taking our time and making sure that it's not biased and that we're being safe about the data.

But it was fantastic. I was really excited about it.

Galen Low: Love that. Yeah. I was just at the collision conference in Toronto and it was all AI, of course, and all of these startups, right. All of these proof of concept, uh, you know, and, and startup organizations, but it was very much, the theme was very much pump the brakes.

Like everyone was talking about pump the brakes, pump the brakes. There's so many things we could do. We can do tech is enabling it, but should we? Um, so we will dive a little bit more into that as well. Thanks so much. Uh, and our third, uh, panelist is Mukhtar Kadiri, a speaker and coach who helps people land high paying PM roles through his coaching practice, WorkTipsPro.

Mukhtar, you've been everywhere lately. You've been in my feed everywhere. Uh, you've been on podcasts, you've been doing speaking engagements, you've been doing kids birthday parties. Um, I was wondering, what's a myth? That [00:07:00] keeps coming up that, in your opinion, needs to be dispelled about project management or AI or career development in general.

Mukhtar Kadiri: What's a myth that needs to be dispelled? Um, well, I think one myth is that AI will come take our jobs. And you know, you probably heard the saying that It's not the people that the people that are going to get displaced are people that don't know how to use the technology. So I think that that's, you know, 1 myth.

I think that project management is here to stay and we're going to play an increasing, uh. Important role in terms of even, like, helping ushering this technology into mainstream. So I think that that's 1 myth and, um, yeah, I have an optimistic view on that.

Galen Low: That is the I couldn't have. Created a beggar's, a beggar's segway.

Uh, so let's, let's dive into it. I was, my, my note here says set the table, but, uh, Mukhtar, you kind of did that. So, [00:08:00] thank you. Um, but, uh, let me do my little spiel and then we'll dive in. So it is June 2024 and I think it's fair to say that this isn't the easiest time to be a project manager. I mean, our roles have been impacted by waves of layoffs, especially in the tech sector.

Um, we have this rapid adoption of generative AI tools. Um, and just generally, the global economy is pretty uncertain right now. Um, but, you know, Mukhtar, to your point, rather than being negative about it, We thought we'd just give this all an optimistic spin today and talk about how we can use this opportunity to reframe the strategic value of the project manager and arm you all with a plan, not just to survive, but hopefully thrive as a pm today, tomorrow, and maybe for the next decade ahead.

Uh, okay. Tall, tall order. That might have been an oversell, but uh, that's the lens that we're putting on this. Um, so I thought we kind of dive in today. Um, and just explore. And maybe I'll just start with the present day stuff. Um, and I'm gonna pick on [00:09:00] Gene for this one, but I'll hear from all the panelists as well.

Um, here's the thing I'm seeing right now. Um, I'm seeing all these like skills reports and job market reports and like LinkedIn and other sources. And they've all listed project management as one of the most in demand skills today. So why do you think it is that it seems like project managers are getting laid off in droves?

Jean Kang: So I have seen the report. Um, it was floating on LinkedIn and I was like, heck, yes, like we need this. This is so true. Um, I'll have a different point of view on this on my LinkedIn for the past 2 years. And I've seen a lot of the tech layoffs, right? I've had family and friends impacted. I actually have not seen a project managers, project managers, program managers get laid off.

Um, I have seen the functions and rules that I have seen get laid off predominantly have been around either sales, recruiting, marketing. That's just me. I'm not saying that it's not happening, but that's just kind of what I've seen. And I'll just [00:10:00] piggyback off of Mukhtar and say that. I do believe that project management is here to stay.

Um, quick context when I was at Figma three months ago before I quit, um, I was part of those hiring conversations as well, right? We're hunkering down on budget. What roles do we invest in? And I kid you not, the leadership team all want to invest in the roles that are very PM heavy. Right. You might not have that title, but they want someone who can orchestrate, who can drive projects, um, who can work with different stakeholders, who can get stuff done.

So that's my stance.

Galen Low: I really appreciate that. So everybody, um, connect with Jean because people who are connected with her still, uh, they're, they're, they're kicking butt, kicking butt in their jobs. No, I appreciate that other lens because honestly, sometimes, um, you know, if y'all don't mind me saying so, sometimes the headlines are so sensational these days and they seem like just one thing.

You're like, oh gosh, like everything's going wrong. Doesn't mean it's going wrong everywhere. It's a thing. Absolutely. I've had folks, [00:11:00] you know, impacted by, by layoffs in, in PM roles as well. Yeah. But it doesn't mean it's everywhere. It doesn't mean it's all doom. So I appreciate that. Uh, I appreciate that a lot.

Um, I'm going to throw to you, what have you been seeing, uh, in, in your work, in, in your sort of, um, journeys and ventures out there? Are you seeing folks getting impacted by layoffs on the PM world?

Mukhtar Kadiri: I mean, I would say that, yes, you know, some, some PMs have been have been impacted, but I, I concur with Jane. I haven't seen as many.

Uh, PMs compared to other functions, right? So I think I was even looking at the study there. Somebody. Analyze what roles were affected and on top of that list is people in HR recruiting, right? They tend to. Um, unfortunately, we let go 1st, um, and then there was. You know, people in the customer success, um, in the customer success function, and then we now had software [00:12:00] engineers, right?

Because, you know, and, you know, this period that we're in is particularly bad because a lot of times software engineering was looked at as this, um, ticket, right? To, you know, it's very stable, but now we're seeing a lot of software engineers, um, being, being laid off and then, you know, so I think that there's several functions before we even start thinking of, uh, uh, you know, Okay.

Of project management. So I would say that maybe this is one of those cases where you know how maybe you're looking for a new car and you're trying to buy this particular, you know, brand and all of a sudden you start seeing that car around you. So maybe that's what's happening, but I would say, I don't, I don't believe the data bears, bears it out that, you know, project managers are being overrepresented in, in, in lay of statistics.

Galen Low: Yeah, I mean, you know, like we kind of said at the top, like, in some ways, there is a strain on the economy overall businesses, you know, they're dealing with uncertainty, ambiguity, and you know, they have to make things work. And yeah, like you said about shopping for a car, I totally hear you. It seems like Now, [00:13:00] everywhere I look, it's like project managers and, and, and job struggles.

Um, but it doesn't mean it's not also affecting other professions as well. Um, yeah. And I hear you about the developer thing. Like I, I was, you know, I watched people go through that wave. Like, yeah, this is a safe job. Everything needs code. Like we're not, there's nothing's going to replace us yet. Um, and then I have colleagues who are, you know, learning Python through chat GPT.

So there you go. Uh, Donna, I, I might put you on the spot a little bit here and just say like, you know, are, are, are you noticing, uh, some folks in your circles or even where you're at right now, like kind of trying to, um, pick up project management talent? I mean, there's a lot of transformation happening.

There's a lot of projects, um, you know, what are you seeing in terms of folks who are hiring, um, and sort of the reasons behind that

Ordonna Sargeant: there. So, I, I really do agree with what was said prior. Um. I am seeing more on the hiring side than I'm than not, and they are [00:14:00] looking for people with a project management skill set.

Um, so I have yet to see anyone saying, you know, project management is overrated. They're looking for people who can lead without authority. You can leave with autonomy. Like, they're looking for that skill set. Um, I have heard about different positions at different levels. So here at American Express, there's so many levels, but there is, you know, managers, directors, VPs, and they're like, Well, we need someone who has project management skill set.

And when you're looking at the different roles that I've seen, they're still looking for individuals who know how to lead a project from beginning to closure. And, um, Especially doing different types of methodologies because some teams are still doing waterfall. Lots of teams are doing hybrid where they're seeing your management just once a date, whereas the team is working in an agile rollout.

So [00:15:00] I think that it's really important that you do stay closer to, um, the actual leads that you might have on LinkedIn. People you're following when you see someone who's posting a role, follow them because they will likely post again. Um, there's a lot of those types of things that I do to stay close to Um who's hiring who's not because I do have friends who are who are looking but I haven't seen as much layoffs, too I can agree.

Galen Low: There you go love that and thank you for mentioning that too because uh, you know in a lot of cases it's not always like Project manager as a title. I'm imagining, you know, you mentioned some roles, VPs and otherwise, like, you know, like delivering is a skill. Uh, the title is not what's that, you know, what's, what's.

That important. It's sort of the responsibility of the skillset. We're going to dive into that a little bit later on. Uh, absolutely. But thank you for teasing that. I appreciate it. Um, I get to, I get to shift into something a bit more tactical. Um, because people keep saying, myself included, that generative AI is providing an [00:16:00] opportunity for project managers to become more strategic, but also you have to like learn these tools and it seems like that's a full time job as well.

Um, I thought maybe Donna and Jean, maybe you could kind of share. What you think the key is to kind of doing both at the same time. Like, how can we be strategic and also learn these new tools as our like role gets disrupted? Um, Gene, what have you been seeing? What are your tips?

Jean Kang: Sorry, gotta clear my throat.

So I would say there's like a twofold approach. One is mindset and the other is technical. I would say the mindset piece is recognizing that nobody really has AI figured out, even though they might say that they are an AI group, it's just evolving so much. And even though I have a course built on it, I still don't consider myself an expert.

Um, and, uh, just the lens that I'll provide is even when I was building out that course, I Had to recognize that one and then to, um, micro dose learning. [00:17:00] That's kind of what I did. How do I learn without burning out? Right? How do I learn? Um, that will help me get value for myself in my own workflow. So if you're in, you are working, um, right now, some tactically, some things you can do is, um, one, I think it's really helpful to set expectations with your manager, like, Hey, I'm really invested in learning more about AI and how it can help my work and how it can help drive our projects.

That's one, see if they're willing to support you, tap into your L and D budget, um, and they might recommend some things, right? They might have a curated list of AI courses, or you can crowdsource them. So there's so many gems. Um, just to tap into with your, with your peers, right? LinkedIn Learning is one of them, Udemy, Coursera, so on and so forth.

Um, and then tactically, like, time blocking, that's what I did. Just commit to one or two hours a week, do it on my lunch break, um, learn the concepts and then directly apply it. [00:18:00] But apply to a specific situation or maybe it's, I want to identify some risks and like the likelihood of these risks for X project, right?

Um, that's, that's what I've seen work really well for me.

Galen Low: Well, that what's been your favorite, um, micro dosing, uh, Sort of lesson, I guess, in AI. Something

Jean Kang: that I've done recently for project management and also just other use cases is like, I'm going through, I'm going through an issue right now. Here's the pushback that I'm getting.

Here's a situation, here's a context, like let's role play together. So I thought that that's been a really interesting way for me to open up my mind and think through, just let's tackle this from different angles. Yeah. And that sort of strategic

Galen Low: too, you know, I know. I love that what you, what you said earlier, because the strategic part is like, yeah, go to your boss, go to your manager, go to the leadership team and like mentioned this that in itself is strategic, right?

You're like, [00:19:00] Hey, I'm keen. I'm interested. Like I can be also that person that learns the AI stuff, right. Is great at my job. Maybe can teach the organization as well. Like there's a strategy to that as well. I think that's clever. I think that's clever. Uh, Donna, how about you? What kinds of things are you recommending for your team to kind of get up to speed with Gen AI without sort of getting, like, rolled into this, you know, massive hamster wheel of, you know, trying to drink the ocean?

Ordonna Sargeant: Yeah, so, um, there's a few things. So, like I mentioned, risk at birth here at Amex. So, uh, we are not allowed to just take what we know and throw it into chat GPT. However, um, what I have learned, I'm also an adjunct professor for a graduate program and what I think is truly important is finding opportunities to.

Um, educate and upgrade how you prompt chat GPT. So because just like Jean mentioned, it [00:20:00] is ever evolving and quickly. Um, what I've found helpful is to follow, um, hashtag. So I follow a hashtag chat, GPT on LinkedIn. Um, PMI just dropped a new, um, uh, What is it? A new course. The first one they did for general generative AI was free.

This one is free. If you remember 20 if not, but it's the data landscape for Gen AI project manager. So what I do is I try to stay really close to not only the, um, Okay. The trends that are happening, like by industry leaders, but also those who are actually doing the work. So when I'm looking for, um, my new PMs that are, you know, getting their degree, I'm asking them, I want you to use chat.

And I want you to, uh, ask, how can you solve this project, but as a new PM versus how you would solve this specific problem as a [00:21:00] tenured program manager, see what the differences are. I want you to ask for a chart that's going to break down the pros and cons or the, um, constraints of this project and what the potential outcomes could be.

You know, I try to make them use it. Um, a huge part of it is using it tactically. And then also finding out how can you make your prompts smarter and work for you.

Galen Low: I love that. Like, uh, like hot tip with the hashtag thing. That's great. I'm doing that right after this raps. And also I really like that because like, you know, you know, you have this like sort of tone of voice or whatever, you know, we have a lot of prompts that are like act as a whatever.

Very good, very professional project manager. And then give me the answer. But I love that idea of comparing the two. Like, what is like the beginner sort of, um, A response from chat versus what it would respond with if, you know, it was assuming that you were kind of more experienced and senior. Yeah.

That's very cool. Mukhtar, how about you? Any, uh, any gen AI, [00:22:00] uh, sort of learning tips, how to kind of get up to speed with it without getting overwhelmed?

Mukhtar Kadiri: Yeah, I mean, I, I think, you know, um, the, the other 2 speakers, you know, covered covered it. It's, it's really we are at the beginning. So it's really just getting plugged into, um, you know, new, new materials, um, you know, like, for example, the, the PMI course is a good 1, um, you know, uh, jeans course, you can, you can take a look at that.

And I would also say just, you know, Listening to industry thought leaders where there are a lot of people that regularly churn out content on LinkedIn. So plugging in into that. And I'm also a huge fan of podcasts, right? So I like, and you can find podcasts along the technical spectrum. There's some that are really deeply technical.

And then there's some that sort of, um. Are speaking to to a business audience, right? So, uh, you know, I'm a huge fan of those just, you know, how can AI be very applicable? Um, and also understanding like, you [00:23:00] know, this technology vis a vis, um, intersection of like business and politics. So, um, yeah, that, that would be my addition, just, you know, also plugging into podcasts as well.

Galen Low: It's also like, it's in a similar vein to what Donna said, right? Where you can like, Just because you're not the target audience for a podcast doesn't mean you can't listen to it and get a sense of what that audience is interested in. So if, you know, like in the agency world, you know, I was like, should I listen to an agency owner podcast?

Yeah, why not? Because then I know what the leadership team is thinking about, talking about, what do they care about? You know, what are the, what big decisions are they weighing? Um, that's strategic to me. Love that. Love that. Love that. Love that. Um, and a dive, uh, I'm switching directions a little bit. So bear with me.

But, um, some of the things that I see happening these days is, uh, almost an amplification of like misconceptions about project managers, because I see a lot of, you know, like, oh, AI is doing this now. So like, sorry, I guess you're out of a job. And you know, I'm like, I don't know. I [00:24:00] don't, I don't think it's like replacing me.

And then you're like, wait a minute. People don't understand what project managers do still. And you all are coaches. You're all working with project managers and other professionals trying to grow their careers. Um, and I thought maybe I'd just do, do a round of like, what's the biggest misconception?

What's the biggest misconception about project managers that your clients are up against these days? Uh, Mukhtar, I might pick on you first.

Mukhtar Kadiri: Yeah. So there, there, there are a lot, um, so, so I guess in the context of trying to get a job, um, one of the biggest misconceptions, okay, I'm not getting a job, then it must be my resume.

Okay. Right so so that's that's a big 1 and then you have people. Okay. I paid like 300 dollars, you know, to get my resume rewritten. Now, I don't know what else I had somebody who actually had, like, up to 10 different resume writers. Right? Um, so the resume is 1 thing, but then, like, I think anybody looking for a [00:25:00] role or looking to get to that next level, they should have a strategy.

Right? So. The resume is important, but it's not. It's not all that there is, right? So do you have a networking strategy? Do you have a thought leadership, um, strategy? Do you have a social media strategy? So there are all these things because there are all these different channels where you can get a job and you know You've probably heard this but some people say that um About 70 to 80 or to 90 percent of the jobs are part of the hidden job market you know if we're gonna I'm not sure the veracity of that, but you know, a lot of jobs actually gotten through the job market, even from my own personal experience.

So you want to, you want to open up avenues so that you can also get jobs, you know, from the hidden job market and not just what's posted there. So I would say that's one of the big misconceptions that is like, it's just my resume. That's why I'm not getting a job.

Galen Low: I love that. Yeah. We're always trying to look good on paper, but like, that's not the only way to kind of, Pitch yourself.

Love that. Gene, how about you? What are, what are some [00:26:00] misconceptions that you see out there in the world that folks are struggling with in the project management world?

Jean Kang: Yeah, I would say the 2 flavors of this and they're kind of correlated. The 1st lens is, um, I don't have the all the PM qualifications to land a project manager role.

That's 1 and then tangentially. It's like, I don't have the PMP. Um, so I don't think that I'm qualified to go for this role. Yeah, those are misconceptions because just moving from my own background and dealing with it a podcast on this. Um, I may self taught. Program manager. I pivoted into this field. Um, I remember studying for the PMP because I also thought the same thing, but the light bulb moment was when I landed my very first full time program manager job at LinkedIn.

I was a customer success manager at Pinterest at the time, but what got me that job was my ability to like, to think strategically about the questions and [00:27:00] my responses have plenty of strong examples that demonstrate that I am. I am a program manager without the title and like articulating that impact that I've had.

That's what, what makes you shine. Yeah.

Galen Low: I love that. And honestly, I, um, I think flipping that lens, right. There's also this misconception sometimes from folks who are hiring. They're like, Oh, I need a PMP. Someone's got to have their PMP. Like that's how I know it's going to be okay. Um, and I don't blame PMI for this.

I see this arc happening right now. It's just, it's sort of like, okay, well. You know, what letters do people who I'm competing with have next to their name? And then, yeah, maybe I'll have to go get those. Um, but yeah, I, I, I flip in that sort of misconception around if anyone's out there going like, Oh man, I can't afford someone who has a PMP yet, because it's a designation that means you have lots of experience.

You know, you've gotten the hours, you've gotten the training. It's not like a beginner, uh, designation. Um, it is a [00:28:00] experience designation. Um, and sometimes people kind of get stuck in a rut because they're like, uh, I need to hire someone who's got a PMP. You probably don't. Uh, Donna, how about you? What, what's your favorite misconception about project managers, uh, these days?

Ordonna Sargeant: I think one of the one of my favorites is, um, I I've seen this a long time. Um, people do not know how to communicate their value. So I think what gets lost is, uh, if you can get the resume to to hit the right lights and and get your name through. I think oftentimes, um, as PMS, we might promote what the team did.

We might, um, say, well, that wasn't exactly my title or my role, but I helped. It sounds very, uh, and I understand it's supportive. However, you need to be able to bring to the table exactly what you did, um, to be [00:29:00] successful, um, what strategic planning you led and facilitated, um, and then also, um, I think people believe you only can use LinkedIn.

There are lots of ways to market yourself, right? And I worked with a lot of technical leads and I was like, they have portfolios. Can project managers have portfolios? So I was like, I'm just going to make a website. So I, I decided to make OrdanaSGT. com specifically because I wanted people to be able to see me in and I wanted people to, uh, if you were to Google me or if you were to, If, um, when I'm applying for a job, you can see, I legitimately love this.

This is something I actually enjoy doing. Um, and it takes a special person to want to be in the middle of the chaos, but, um, I, I love project management and I wanted that to be obvious, right? And it doesn't have to be, um, the comma behind your name that makes [00:30:00] it. Obvious that this is something you enjoy doing and not everyone enjoys project management.

So to bring someone to the group that loves it, um, goes a long way. And I have been told on multiple occasions during my interview process that was like, you obviously like this. Right? And, and it's obvious that I do. And I think. Bringing that piece of yourself when you're trying to promote your skill set really goes a long way.

And some, I think oftentimes people are struggling with that. I love that.

Galen Low: I love how that passion shines through and like, you know, flipping that lens around again, right? Those misconceptions of PMs don't really do anything. They just kind of support the work, right? Like, and then they're like, Most PMs are kind of crabby, like they probably just have to do this job because they don't specialize in anything else.

But like, legit, if you're out there and you're like, I love this, just saying you love it is actually just puts you ahead of the pack like immediately. Yeah, it's true. It's really Love it. Love it. Love it. Love it. Oh, amazing. Maybe this is related, um, but really, [00:31:00] secretly, I just wanted to shove this question in because I was curious about Mukhtar.

Uh, because, Mukhtar, some of what you do is, um, helping to negotiate, uh, like higher salaries for, uh, project managers. We're talking like, you know, the six figure territory. Um, and I was just wondering, like, what are some of the things That make a sort of high paying six figure salary role, uh, different than a lower earning role in project management.

Uh, and then just spicy question to, to add to that. Do you envision that AI is going to start closing this gap between, you know, the folks who are getting paid the big bucks and the folks who are probably underpaid? Um, yeah, what are those differences? Is that gap changing?

Mukhtar Kadiri: That's that's uh, that's a really spicy question.

Um, so so to uh to answer so so what really makes um somebody Earn higher so there are a few things [00:32:00] Um, so first of all, obviously there is what you, the skills and the experience that you possess, right? Um, so, you know, people manage us tend to get more money than, than, than, than, you know, the people that are leading, right?

So, you know, that's, that's pretty obvious. Uh, but there's also the IC track, you know, when it comes to project, the individual contributor track. Right. And I see a lot of companies now actually really fleshing out that. Project management track, right? So, or program management track, so you might have a program manager, senior, lead, staff.

And then principle, right? Um, so, so I'm seeing more of that. So obviously, you know, that gives you an alternative route to, to also progress and still still, um, you know, command high, high 6 figure the 3rd component, you know, so the 3rd component. It is now having specialized skill sets, like, for example, you know, cyber security, for example, that's a very in demand skill, right?

Um, you know, cloud [00:33:00] cloud technology, you know, although a lot of people have that, but it's still like a lot of people still want to migrate to the cloud. They still want to move, you know, their infrastructure from, From on premise to, um, to the cloud. So, so that's still, um, a, an in demand skill set. Um, and of course, you know, there's AI and there are things like, you know, data centers, and all of that.

So having, having specialized skills that also helps you to command more, um, more dollars, um, but I would say just on top of all of this, besides all of this. You need to just really believe that you can command that because one of the, one of the big things that I see is that many people are scared to negotiate.

Right? So I actually, I helped, um, somebody negotiate just recently. And like, this person worked at a top tech company. Um, this person is just brilliant. But they were just ready to just accept the offer right there [00:34:00] because they've been looking for a job for a very long time. Right. So I had to really push them and say, no, you know, what's the worst that can happen?

Uh, you know, you've, um, they've come all this way. They really want you. Right. So I think that, that, that's that mindset shift is really what keeps a lot of people back from negotiating. Um, yeah. So, but, but just to answer your question, you know, just, uh, briefly, it's really, of course you have to have the skills and experience, but.

The mindset, just knowing that you can negotiate and you can advocate for yourself. That is the key. Um, something that's also very important as well.

Galen Low: I love that. You know, we just did like a salary survey and you know, it was, it was all over the map to be honest with you. Um, and it can be sort of, it can send a message really, right?

You know, my own sort of personal opinion on it is like, okay, I guess this is the band where I'm worth something and outside of that I'm not. Whereas we've, if you were to flip it and be like, well, what's the value actually of me doing a good job there, right? And like you said, like journey to cloud stuff.

That's like, these are multi million dollar programs. They matter. [00:35:00] Uh, and I think the other thing that's really interesting there is like, you know, sometimes we're like, okay, you know, back to that misconception. Okay. There's a misconception that project managers, they specialize in project delivery. Yes, of course we do.

There is a whole nother level of that conversation. That's like, can you also specialize in other things? Can you be someone who's really good at understanding how to lead a cloud, uh, migration project or cybersecurity project? And does that put you into a better position where, yeah, absolutely, if I was in cyber security, and I had two candidates, and I've kind of walked down the garden path with them, and one of them is like, okay, well, you know, I'm a cyber security expert, and the other one's like, I'm a generalist, I just deliver projects.

There's a lot there to like, think about. I'm not saying one is better than the other, but there's a lot more in that conversation about, okay, They're a specialist at delivering, they've got the experience, and they know cyber security. They're not, you know, gonna go in and be like, just like any other project.

Don't get me wrong, there's a whole school of thought that's like, we just have to be good at delivering projects, and you can deliver any projects, and I also believe that. But in the marketplace, I love that idea, that you can actually [00:36:00] narrow your specialization, or at least have those cards up your sleeve, so that when you're going after that cyber security job, you can be like, yeah, here's me.

Excellent. Love it, love it. Um. I wanted to circle back to something, uh, that we were talking about earlier. Donna, you had brought it up, uh, this notion that project management is in demand. The project manager title might not be, you know, it might not look like there's like a plethora of opportunities out there if you just went into LinkedIn or Indeed and search project manager.

Um, and honestly, there's a lot of folks today delivering projects that don't self identify as project managers. I mean, you know, I've talked to a lot of product managers, like technology managers, marketing people, all these folks that we kind of call SMEs. You know, they're like, yeah, I'm, I'm doing projects.

I'm leading projects. Um, and just curious for that perspective, maybe from all of you, uh, of, you know, is there still value in having a dedicated project manager role? Um, especially, you know, as we're sort of [00:37:00] positioning this value of, well, maybe actually some of the SMEs can lead the project seems to be going fine.

They're delivering informal projects informally and they're going well. Uh, how do you, how do you frame the value of a dedicated project manager who has that project manager title? Maybe I will start with Donna.

Ordonna Sargeant: So, um, that's a great question. Um, you know, even when I was hired here at Amex, my, the, the role was data governance, um, director program enablement.

Wow. Interesting. Right. So, um, that's a mouthful. And, um, you know, I didn't have specifically governance, um, Not the way that we do it here, uh, background. However, they needed someone with complex project management experience. And I think the value in having a dedicated project manager, especially when I look back on some of the [00:38:00] extremely intense projects I've been on specifically in agency life, it would have been totally unfair to the SME.

The SME would have been completely inundated with giving updates across. Up to management, um, uh, when think when a project or money was now at risk. Like, cause you know, I did the project with one of them Thompson during COVID. And they said, well, what if we stopped the project? What happens? What, what would happen?

And it was the project manager and my, my director who had to get together and make sure that we had a strategic response to that. You wouldn't have the same team, you'd lose some of your momentum. You would have to do rework like that whole, um, approach and being able to provide them with a strategy and even project or have a forecast around how much they would lose in terms of money.

That's not an SME. That's a PM, right? Um, that's a PM skill set. [00:39:00] Um, being able to communicate that without. Being painfully nervous, right? Because everyone's role was in your hands, right? People would have lost their jobs. If this project would have went under, there is value in having someone who is dedicated to monitoring the timelines.

Um, if something should go wrong. To brainstorm and how are we going to pivot? How can we can we absorb this delay? Um, all of those, uh, skill sets and managing constraints. That's a thing that a PM does on a day to day basis. That is not always specific to a certain market and it's needed. Right? So, um, I would just say that it's important that.

Pms are still, um, involved. And these, some of the things that I just mentioned, you can put it into chat GPT and AI, but you need an actual person, right, who can be involved and make sure that they're appealing to who they need to [00:40:00] talk to and making sure that everyone on the team understands exactly what it is that they need to deliver.

So I hope that was, that was helpful.

Galen Low: Love that. That's the craft. Yeah, absolutely. Applause. Gene, are you, uh, has that been your experience as well? Like in some of the roles that you've seen, uh, and been in, in, in the tech sector?

Jean Kang: Yeah, I mean, honestly, hold on every word that just came out of your mouth. It resonated with me so deeply down to like having a ridiculous title to like the expectation versus reality.

Right? Um, and and so I'll just echo. Yes. Dedicated PM's highly, highly necessary. Uh, I would say in an analogy form, PM's are like the quarterback right there. There are different members on the team, um, but you always have a quarterback and like a backup. Quarterback as well. And what I've realized is like even with my, um, I reported into our, our senior director, sometimes I'll have like this surprise project kind of [00:41:00] come out of nowhere, but it's because for a leader, they want like one trusted person that they can just have peace knowing that this project is going to run smoothly with their.

Control with their, um, influence. And so that gives other teams, because PMs are managing groups of people at a time, right? And there's so many intricate little deliverables and things that are happening, but there's just so much piece control that comes from one person, um, managing the different pieces and orchestrating.

Galen Low: Love that way. Yes. Conductor of the orchestra. I love using the word orchestration, orchestrate, orchestra. It's just fun to say. Um, I know we've got about 17 minutes left here and I do wanna get to some questions and I wanna get to an important question about the future of project management in a gen ai fu gen ai.

I probably should have learned to say that before this panel in an ai, [00:42:00] late in future. Um, but, uh, I thought. I might pick a little bit of a pause here and I know some folks will vote you're probably going to be running to your next meeting. I just wanted to pause and say thank you everybody for joining.

Um, it's been great having everybody here and it's just so, uh, encouraging, I guess, to see An interest in this conversation. And I see the chat. I see you chat. I know I haven't been talking about it a lot, um, but I see such good information being shared and that is absolutely, um, what we need. Uh, just a quick plug from me.

If you love this sort of thing, um, join our upcoming events. Uh, we've got one in July, uh, which is an AMA with Mark Burnett. Uh, Michael's gonna host that Michael Mordak, who's uh, producing in the background today. We're going to post a link to that in the chat right now. He already did it. Um, and we're going to do another expert panel on freelancing in July.

So stay tuned for details on our August panel. Um, Oh, and also stay tuned for details on our August panel, which is going to be about, uh, modernizing the role of PMO, the [00:43:00] project management office. Uh, so that should be a fun one. And if you're a guest today and you're interested in becoming a VPN member, check us out, uh, head over to the digital project manager.

com slash membership. We are a supportive knowledge. We are a supportive knowledge sharing community. That's hell bent on getting you skilled, getting you confident, getting you connected. So that you can build a rewarding career leading digital projects that change the world. Um, so, uh, yeah, I, I guess maybe back to our regular scheduled programming.

Um, I'll, I'll, I'll throw some things in the chat for our members about some stuff that's coming up this week. Um, but I thought maybe we'll get back to it. I wanted to ask one question around the future to our panelists. And then I saw some questions come in, in the chat that I really wanted to get to as well.

Um, so let's, let's do the glimpsing into the future part. Um, alright, it's June 2024, uh, but careers aren't just about today, they're about the future, it's a livelihood thing, um, and the big question is, alright, what should PMs start doing differently [00:44:00] today? That's going to keep them relevant over the next three to five years.

I used to say ten years, but I'm like, that's a little far to look out. Like, we don't even know what's going to happen with tech and with industry. Um, but, over the next three to five years, what's, what's something that a PM can start doing differently today that they haven't been doing before that's going to keep them relevant in the future?

Um, I, I'm going to go to Mukhtar first.

Mukhtar Kadiri: Yeah, no, that's, um, that's a very good question. Um, and I usually like to boil, like, I like to boil things down into, into two. So I would say relationships and receipts. Um, and relationships, you know, because a lot of times people buy things from people that they like, and they trust, right?

So just get into the habit of just building relationships regularly. Um, it could be 15 minute coffee chats every week and that adds up right? You [00:45:00] know, so that's about 50 people. If you do twice a week, that's about 100 people. So I'll say just learning to build. Uh, relationships that. That will bring you value and that you can also, you know, contribute to them, right?

Because there's also fulfillment in adding value to other people's lives. Um, and then the second thing is, is receipts, basically, because a lot of PMs claim, like, even just going back to, you know, the discussion about PMP and all of that. So there are a lot of people out there that claim that they can do stuff, right?

But what's the evidence? What's the proof, right? So One example could be like having a portfolio, like, or Dana mentioned, like, you know, that is the evidence of what I can do. Right? So you don't, you don't need to have me go through 10 interview, uh, rounds for you to know what I'm capable of doing, or just building your thought leadership online.

Right? That consistency and just regularly showing up and contributing to the conversation, um, you know, those are receipts. I'm just going to just a quick [00:46:00] story. One time I got called for an interview with a top tech company. Okay. And one of the person, one of the interviewers told me, all right, I'm just going to shut up because I've actually benefited from your, from your content.

So I'm just going to let my colleague actually just do the questioning. Right. So, so, you know, that's an example of your receipt, right? So just to answer your question, what can you do next three to five years? I would just say, focus on, um, receipts and building relationships.

Galen Low: Love that. I love that people side of things too, right?

In a, in a AI world, actually, maybe the optimistic side is it might bring people together. Very cool. Very cool. Donna, how about you?

Ordonna Sargeant: So something that I mentioned often to individuals, a lot of the roles that did not exist five years ago, um, were murmurs, right? So if you can stay close to what are the new roles that are coming out, right?

So there is an AI prompt engineer, generative design specialist, an AI input or [00:47:00] output manager. Find out what they do. Find out what this is. Um, you know, Stay close to what the trends are and how they're growing, attending things like this. Um, and then also just like, um, was just mentioned with regard to ask for a coffee chat, reach out and say, you know, I'd love for us to set up some time.

To learn a little bit about what you've done and, or if you didn't get to go to a certain session, um, and you saw it on LinkedIn, just say, I was so impressed. I'd love to, you know, just pick your brain for 15 minutes. You know, I learned so much from just your, your post, but if you have an opportunity to chat, I'd love to.

So, you know, Playing back or plugging back to what they actually did that is, um, tied to future things that you see, um, building in the market, I think is really key because there is so much coming and I couldn't today, June 2024 say exactly what the new role will be [00:48:00] in 2025, but Forbes is looking and like there are other places that are posting where these brand new roles and titles are.

So if you can stay closer to that. I think that's important. Last little plug is all of these different PLCs that they're having at Amex have a PM assigned to them, right? So you will be the PM of the Gen AI project. Like those projects need someone to track and see whether or not they were successful and how do we pivot and how do we iterate?

So those would be my plugs.

Galen Low: Boom. Love that. There's something poetic in that too. As you were saying that, I'm like, okay. Chat GPT is great at no stuff about the past. Chat with people is how you're going to know what's going to happen in the future.

Ordonna Sargeant: Sure. Yeah,

Galen Low: agreed. Very cool. Jean, how about you? What's your tip for folks of what they can do differently to be relevant over the next three to five years as a project person?

Jean Kang: Um, just a few things that come to mind, uh, in the same vein of what Ordana and Mukdar said, invest [00:49:00] in your personal brand. You know, each of us, we have invested in it, right? And it doesn't have to be on LinkedIn. If you like, most of your employers and colleagues are on LinkedIn. So it is important that you have at least a polished profile, but you can create a portfolio, right?

You can be on places like Instagram, wherever gives you energy to, and that shows your personality beyond a piece of paper. Right. I think that is so important. Um, and then secondly, in the spirit of, of AI, uh, adopting AI tools in your workflow to make your life easier. I mentioned about this a little bit earlier, for example, um, meeting notes, right?

PMs are great note takers, right? Action items, but there are tools like that that can make our lives easier. Um, and so that's one thing. And even things like presentation building or deck building has been a historical sore for I'm sure many of us. Um, but there are tools [00:50:00] like that as well. So you can overlay that on top of prompting, right?

On top of using different prompts, um, and engineering that. But yes, open up your world. And in the last but not least, investing in the soft skills, I would say, particularly your strategic thinking and communication. Um, and what my managers have coached me on is your ability to think 5 to 10 steps ahead.

I used to like, 3 to 5 steps ahead, but that's really stretched me as well. Change management, right? How do you make change stick not only for the launch, but For six months after lunch a year after lunch, um, and be in the rooms with leaders, because that's going to help you a lot in understanding how leaders make decisions, what they care about, what questions that they might have.

Galen Low: Love that. Love that, love that, love that. Uh, and, and yeah, I think, you know, in, in some of my conversations too, right, like, there's so [00:51:00] much going on in AI right now, not just chat GPT, not just, what's it called, Gemini now? I'm, I'm Canadian, I'm so far behind.

Jean Kang: Who uses Gemini, BARD, I think it used to be called BARD before.

Galen Low: BART is what I'm like on the waiting list for as a Canadian and then they're like, by the way, it's not called that anymore. I'm like, that's great. I haven't had a chance to use it yet. But no, I love that. I, I mean, Gene, maybe your next LinkedIn learning course, huh? Soft skills, looking into the future, 10 steps ahead, playing chess as a project manager.

I love that because, you know, I mean, listen, I'll say it again. Uh, the large language models, you know, they know what's there now. They don't know what's going to be there in the future yet. But, you know, that's a, that's a strong play, strong play. Uh, and you all have been doing a great job of building your brands.

That should be the next panel or course that we do all together. Uh, but thank you again for you, you, you all are sharing so much knowledge here today, but like on a, on the daily, on a regular basis, and that takes effort. And I think that should be [00:52:00] applauded as well. Um, All right, quick transition with the six minutes we have left.

There's a couple questions, uh, in the chat, um, that I'm going to try and extract and field. And when I say that, I mean, Michael has already done it for me. Um, there was actually a really good question in here, um, which is, uh, just, The question is, I'll just read it out. Can you talk about how to get a project management internship?

As someone with foundational certifications, what can I do differently to get an internship? And I see this question so much because in some ways it's hard these days to get, like, the experience. And I see fewer internships around. I see fewer organizations with a formal internship program. So they're always a little, like, hesitant to, like, be like, Oh yeah, it sounds, sounds good on paper, but who's going to manage all this?

Um, what tips do you all have in terms of getting a project management internship these days?

Yeah. I was got thoughts. I see an interface. [00:53:00]

Mukhtar Kadiri: Yeah. Yeah. Because the project management role is not usually considered entry level, right? So yeah, I guess that's, that's the puzzle. Um, one, one option could be, you know, maybe looking for more entry level roles, maybe like project coordinator, project assistant type roles, um, and then looking for something temporary.

Cause you know, you have some of these contract roles, uh, with. Maybe with an agency recruiter, so that could be, that could be an option, but yeah, I don't, I don't know if I've come across a project management internship role, because it's usually considered a more senior role, but I'd love to hear what others have to say.

Ordonna Sargeant: So I ran to LinkedIn because I feel like I just saw one. Um, so, uh, there are, there are programs like, so Google has one. I know that's a little difficult to get into, but however, there are programs where you [00:54:00] can apply for an internship. And I was, I was looking for them that were live and the one that I just saw in my network.

Um, but I do. Because I've used it and it works for me, um, I do, uh, suggest people follow specific hashtags. Like, I have looking at my hashtags on LinkedIn. I have a list. Um, I follow chat project manager, I. T. project manager call for speakers. Um, hashtag data governance. Um, I would put in. Project management internship, or just internship and see what comes out.

Um, I follow hiring. Um, these are just different list of different things that you can use. Tick tock to scary place. However, there are things on tick tock that I think are helpful. So it is important that you are branching out and and. Like, we're casting a wide net with regard to where the internships are.

Also, it's really important that you look [00:55:00] around specific timing. So, if you're looking for a summer internship, because that's oftentimes they're looking for internships for individuals who are coming from college. Look in the March to that early, you're looking as early as the February March timeframe through April and May for internship posting.

So they have postings where you apply for them, etc. And those are also on on LinkedIn as well.

Galen Low: Love that. Thank you for your hashtag list I was gonna say I'm like, man, that is, we could publish that as a little book and sell it. Y'all just got it for free. That's amazing. That's amazing. Thank you for that.

Hello, Gene. What do you have any thoughts on internships? Getting in there?

Jean Kang: Yeah, I think the, the 2 here, they, they hit it, um, hit on this really well. I agree with what Mukhtar said. I personally have not seen many internship roles, but I just did a quick Google search, and I'm noticing that a [00:56:00] few are popping up on places like Google.

Indeed. And I'm sure what those hash are the keywords you can find some on LinkedIn as well. And definitely a pro tip to use a hashtag hiring. And so you can see who's hiring, adding a plug about that. So you can reach out to them directly. Super, super underrated. And. Another thing that I've seen people do to get into this field are considering, um, like rotational programs.

I know the big companies, like a Google or a meta or Amazon, they, they do something like that, but, um. Doesn't mean you can't shoot your shot. Love that.

Ordonna Sargeant: Can we just can I just add, um, try Googling a handshake. So I think handshake also has some of the project management internships. Look at that.

Galen Low: That's cool.

Okay. I got some tips there too. Thank you. Uh, actually Moctar reminded me of what you said earlier, right? It's like, sometimes people come to me and they're like, I'm looking for an internship. I'm like, okay, well, where are you at? And they're like, oh, [00:57:00] I've been doing this and this and this. And like, they've been doing project management.

I'm like, just go for the job. Maybe, right? Like, you know, if it's, if it's a thing, right. Gene to your point to maybe shoot your shot, you know, like some of the, uh, some of the roles. are gonna be stuff that you can get into. Um, you don't always have to look for an internship. And apparently internships are back.

They're back, baby. They are out there. I love that. Uh, I know we are almost at time. I saw the other question get answered in the chat. Um, but for the tape, um, it was about a recommendation on, uh, AI tools. Uh, for meetings, if, uh, transcripts are not allowed in your company. Uh, it's just, uh, AI tools for recording meetings.

Um, so there's a couple in the chat there. Uh, and, uh, yeah, I saw otter come up. I saw, uh, Fred fireflies, um, and a few other things as well. Um, all right. I, I think I have to wrap this because y'all have to go probably. Um, but I just wanted to say, thank you so [00:58:00] much. Uh, thank you to everyone in the audience again.

Thank you for spending the hour with us. Thank you for contributing to just the vibrancy of the project management community at large. Um, we have a feedback survey. Michael has just put it in the chat, please. If you've got a second. Fill out that feedback survey. We love getting pointed raw feedback. We can take it.

Let us know how we did today. And let us know what another topic is that we should cover. And of course, a big thank you to our panelists. Thank you for volunteering your time today, Jean, Ordana, Mukhtar. This was so much fun. Uh, thank you so much for sharing your expertise. Um, and for everybody, have a great rest of your Wednesday, if it's Wednesday where you are, and if it's not, have a great rest of your day, whatever day it is.

Awesome. Thanks so much, and we will catch you on next time.