The Retro: How to Get Promoted and Become a Senior PM

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Kelsey Alpaio: Hey! I'm Kelsey. And welcome back to The Retro on The Digital Project Manager podcast—where we dig into past lessons, future trends, and what they mean for your career.

If you're listening to this episode, you're probably in the market for a senior project manager role. It's not always an easy jump to make. You're going to hit roadblocks. You'll hear "no" more times than you'd like. And maybe you're already feeling stuck—wondering what's missing or why you're not getting that promotion or job offer. That's exactly what we're unpacking here today. 

I have Logan Langin here with me. He's a Senior Project Manager at Sanford Health, so he's been exactly where you are. He figured out how to position his skills and shift his mindset to make that jump to senior PM. He also runs a “30 Days to PM” program for folks trying to break into the field—so, he knows his stuff. 

Logan, welcome to the show!

Logan Langin: Thanks for having me. 

Kelsey Alpaio: So Logan, tell us a little bit about yourself and the work that you do.

Logan Langin: I've been in the project management field for almost a decade now. I started out as a, originally as a social worker for about a year. I then moved into a lab technician role as a bench scientist, and as I was going through that process and really trying to figure out what I wanted to do with my career and my early twenties, I stumbled across project management as an opportunity within my organization.

This was probably about a year and a half into my, career as a researcher. I was really trying to figure out, okay, what is project management? How do I do project management? How can I translate and build my skillset where I am to, eventually pivot into a project management role? As I went along, over the next six and a half or so years, I got promoted into a lab manager role and really started getting exposure to, within the lab work that I was already doing, into my own projects, into elevated projects with collaborative groups.

That really set the stage for me to become a research project manager in 2020, right around the pandemic from there, as I was doing that work and really just refining my skillset and figuring out how do I take what I'm learning now and what is that next step? Senior project manager was obviously the logical choice, and so for me it was figuring out what is that kind of next step to become a senior project manager and how do you become one?

And so in leveraging these more complex and larger projects. As a research project manager, it really allowed me to span the gap to a new opportunity outside of research in healthcare project management as a senior PM which I've been doing since 2021. And so that's really just a quick summary of my career so far.

Kelsey Alpaio: And as you mentioned, you do now have that coveted senior PM title. Walk us through what you had to do to get it. What did that process look like for you? 

Logan Langin: Yeah there are a couple of things there. First and foremost, as I was discovering what project management was working towards the original research.

Project manager, my original title as a project manager, it truly was what's gonna set me apart in the field. I did pursue my PMP, my Professional Project Management certification and got that in 2018, which I feel like really helped open doors for me towards the senior project manager position. It really validates and verifies the level of experience that you have.

Something that I would highlight to any project manager when you're really looking to make that leap from project Manager to that next promotional opportunity, senior project manager or even further, is, first and foremost you need a diversity of projects managed. For me, I wasn't just doing the same thing over and over again.

I was doing a lot of different projects with a lot of different stakeholder groups, varying levels of complexity, higher budgets, higher visibility. That was a key highlight for getting hired into that senior PM role because you aren't going to be doing the same types of projects all the time. You're going to be working with not only diverse stakeholder groups, but much larger, typically stakeholder groups.

You're also going to be working with higher budgets, have higher visibility towards executive leadership. And so for project managers, I really highlight. Looking to pursue opportunities for diversity of projects managed, whether it's different types in different industries, things that are applicable across those domains.

Really taking in feedback. Again, you're working through that complex team management you're working with and reporting to upper management leadership, you're almost always going to have. Some type of a business or strategic impact. So you need to be really aware of that language and the visibility of that and how to effectively report that.

And then I think storytelling is a big part of this and being able to effectively convey your experience and how it meets the needs of that opportunity that you're pursuing. Here's what I've done in the past and here's how I feel like it can translate to this next opportunity as a senior PM where I can thrive.

Kelsey Alpaio: That's some great advice there. 

It makes me wonder how long did that process take you, like from the moment you decided you wanted to get into a more senior role to when you actually stepped into that role? How long was that process and how many nos did you get along the way? Or was it like, was it easy for you? Was it just Yes, immediately? 

Logan Langin: Yeah. No it wasn't. Honestly. I became a research project manager in 2020. I started to get burnt out. In that role as a project manager, most project managers will find if they're not in a more formal project management organization, they tend to take on a lot of hats, which is what I was doing as well.

You're doing a lot of the project work on top of doing a lot of the management and that can be burdensome. And so it took me about three years to make my way from research project manager to senior project manager and really feel comfortable with where I was as a senior project manager. Admittedly, I got a lot of nos along the way.

I probably applied to easily 40 or 50 internal opportunities and probably another 40 or 50 or more external opportunities. And out of those, I probably got less than 10 true interview opportunities. So it did take time. But I will say this, and we may go through this a little bit more as we go along.

Once you figure out really what you can bring to the table and what they're looking for, you typically unlock multiple opportunities at the same time. And that was certainly my experience. I got a lot of no's along the way, but when it came time to pursue the right opportunity, I actually had three opportunities and three offers at the same time.

So when you do it right, it really shows.

Kelsey Alpaio: Wow. Yeah. Three at the same time. That's definitely overwhelming. 

It's clear that at some point you figured out, like what were those things on your resume that you needed to be highlighting? What are those things that you needed to be talking about in those interviews, can you talk us through that a little bit? What were those key changes that you made? 

Logan Langin: First and foremost, I wasn't really representing my resume well. The first thing that I would say is, and hopefully people don't do this, I certainly did it a lot at the time, you can't just use the same templated resume for every single job that you're applying for, right?

Like every job is slightly different. They have slightly different needs. That's why they all have different job descriptions with different, areas that they focus on. And so first and foremost, you need to be very specific and really try to do your homework and be intentional about the roles that you're applying for.

Do I have the experience that they're looking for? Is it something that I'm going to be driven towards and really enjoy? Is it something that I'm passionate about? Then it's really taking the job description and evaluating your experience against it in an effective way. And so for me, I started doing that.

I started another big area, and so for an example, over the course of all of those different rejections and interviews and things of that nature, some of the feedback I got was, you don't have, as much complex. Team leadership as we'd like, or you're not displaying the leadership qualities, the visibility and reporting of your projects.

That would be typical of a senior project manager candidate that we'd be interested in hiring. So I took that feedback and really said, okay, A, how can I build this within my current role with the skill sets that I have? And then B, like certainly I need to start incorporating that more into my resume because this is going to be valuable beyond this opportunity, but for most opportunities as a senior PM.

And so I really started adding that information in. Another key area that I talk about is metrics. You can tell people what you've done, but until you really qualify, like what is the business impact, what is the strategy behind it where it really is valuable to the company? I'm not saying it doesn't mean anything, but that's what the company is looking for and that's what Senior PMs are delivering.

They're delivering strategic value. And so on your resume, you need to start showing those things. What are the budgets that you've worked with? What are the sizes of the departments that you've worked with? What did you ultimately deliver? Was it revenue? Was it efficiency? Was it standardization? And how did you do it?

What was the impact to the end customer? So highlighting metrics that really showed the impact of the projects you're doing goes further than just, I've performed risk management as a bullet point in your resume. I would say the other thing that I would certainly suggest from a resume standpoint is, and this is probably a smaller detail, but resumes are easier to read when you can put them in a format that really does highlight that impact.

And so trying to put them more in a, like a, what did you do and how did you do it format, what did it lead to, really helps versus just like the, again, the generic. Performed risk management performed. Change management developed a communication strategy. And so if you're actionably outlining your resume appropriately, hiring managers are gonna see the value that you've delivered and be able to already start seeing even before the interview where you could tie into their team.

The one other thing that I would mention regarding just a key thing that helped me with getting a promotion beyond just the resume is development and starting to lean on a network. I'm very active on LinkedIn now. I was not at the time. Even within my own organization as I was a, trying to move into a senior PM role, but then starting to recognize that research probably wasn't an area I could stay and do that, I started networking with people within my own organization that A, had made the leap out of research into a different area, and then B, with project managers in my own organization.

Hey, I see you are a senior PM or you are a program manager, or you do lead a project management group? What are some key areas and things that I should be doing? How can I boost my own profile? Again, going back to what can I start building? What are the things I should be highlighting to give myself this opportunity towards that next step?

So I think that really helps if you don't have that available within your organization, I highly suggest, LinkedIn is a great place to also seek it out with qualified professionals in the project management space. But a great local opportunity is through local PMI chapters, through the Project Management Institute and your local chapter.

For me, I live in Sioux Falls, South Dakota, which is small for probably most of the listeners. There are almost 300 project managers in my local PMI chapter. And so it's just a great opportunity to connect with other project managers and be open and available to opportunity. 

Kelsey Alpaio: Yeah, absolutely. And we have a community as well with DPM. We have our Slack community that there's people always active in. It's just, such a great way, not only to make those connections, but also to feel like you have that support. Like you mentioned, this is a role that a lot of people get burnt out in. It is a role that can feel really lonely at times. So having those communities can be so helpful.

Logan Langin: Agreed. A hundred percent. 

Kelsey Alpaio: So you talked a little about the skills that senior PMs need. So you talked about leadership skills, you talked about those storytelling skills. When it comes to the interview process, can you talk a little bit more about. What you think are the most important skills a PM should have if they wanna land a senior PM role and be successful in that role, and then also how they can work to build those skills.

Logan Langin: Yeah, absolutely. It's interesting because once you become a senior PM, at least in my experience, you really recognize where the soft skills play such a key role in the work that you do. It really is more of the art of project management than I would say the science of it. And and so the art of project management and really those people skills that are gonna really get you far and things that you should be honing to effectively drive your projects forward.

As a senior project manager, they sound kind of pie in the sky, so to speak, but problem solving. Communication is a huge one. More complex teams. Typically, you're reporting up to leadership, executive leadership in a way that you maybe weren't before. You're working with more complex teams, sometimes you're mentoring other PMs, and so the communication is obviously a key aspect of it in a way that as maybe more of a junior role is not, you're just not exposed to the same level or number of teams or departments.

A big one I employ or like to employ is active listening. Obviously, in a lot of instances you are facilitating conversations, meetings, decisions being made, and so from your perspective, especially unless you were like a subject matter expert in that area, you're not gonna know everything that's going on.

You're not gonna know everything that they're talking about. You may not know all the acronyms that are being shared or the specific insights or expertise that they have. So for you as a project manager, it's finding or honing the ability to pull out the key pieces that are necessary to keep things moving.

Where are the action items? Where are the next steps? What is key context that's necessary to keep things moving forward? And to do that, you have to be very good at, again, at active listening and just listening to understand and then be able to rephrase appropriately. Emotional intelligence is also a big one.

Again, just overall those people skills in relation to empathy and understanding people and being able to relate to people, I think is a big one. Adaptability, as you go along in your journey, and this is certainly valuable for junior project managers as well, but adaptability is huge As you go along and your projects become more complex, they're also going to have the.

Success of them is going to be that much more important. And so as a project manager, it really is on you to help figure out where can we be flexible? How can we properly incorporate change? How do we mitigate risk for it happens? And that requires an adaptable skillset. I also talked, as you said before, a little bit about storytelling.

I certainly think that as a senior project manager, it is a great skill to have. Often you are. The mediary between leadership and project teams and leadership isn't always fully informed of what's going on or the total process. They don't have the time to dedicate to that. And so as a senior project manager, you're often taking complex information and disseminating it in a way that leadership can understand what the key bullet points that they need.

So for you as a senior project manager, being able to relate that into a language that they can understand and ideally weave it into a, a story that they can piece together is going to benefit you a lot. It also certainly will help a ton with interview prep and resume and all that good stuff as well.

Finally, I really would highlight kind of some of the key tenants that are standard to project management, but are certainly very important at a senior project manager level being risk and change management. As a junior project manager, sometimes you can work your way through those things without standardized processes or without true intent behind ensuring that change is controlled through your process and risks are managed appropriately.

Again, at the level that you're gonna be working at as a senior project manager, your projects success is gonna have an impact on the business as a whole. So if you're not properly going through change management, ensuring that you're following through on how they're impacting the overall project itself and communicating and conveying that appropriately.

And the same with risks, you're gonna have a hard time keeping your arms around that project and making sure that it delivers successfully. 

Kelsey Alpaio: Yeah. Hearing you walk through all of those skills, like it's becoming clear to me that the senior PM role probably isn't right for every PM. And so I'm wondering, are there other avenues like you would recommend for PMs that they should explore if they wanna get promoted or grow in their careers, but don't feel like a senior PM role would be right for them? Or are there other avenues that you explored yourself? 

Logan Langin: Yeah, so the benefit of skill sets for project managers and, moving into senior project management roles or not, the benefit of having that skill set as a project manager is they're broadly applicable, those strong, soft skills and being able to deliver things on time.

And be able to, effectively convey things to leadership is desired in every industry, every field, every role. And so oftentimes if project managers are like, yep, I like project management, I feel like I could utilize it within the frameworks of the duties of a role, but I don't want to solely manage projects.

I certainly think that leadership roles and typically in operational areas of an organization are a great place to land. You can take those people skills and that organization that's really desired from a leadership position and then marry it to operational expertise that you gain over time or you've gained as a project manager.

In my case, in the past my expertise was in research. And so moving into a leadership role, some type of a managerial or even potentially as I went forward, an executive role where I could apply the project management expertise I had to, the research expertise that I gained prior to being a project manager certainly would lend itself to those types of opportunities.

Another area that I would highlight. If you are a project manager, but maybe you like more of the people side of project management, which I have to caveat, project management certainly is people management, but there is a lens of project management that is very involved with project change and how it affects people.

Anytime you embark on a project, it's almost always something new and therefore it's going to affect a process. Therefore affect a person and change the way in which they do their work. And so in my organization and obviously out there as well, there are opportunities to become or to take on roles as a change manager, where you are more focused on the people side of change.

And how do you effectively engage people so that they buy into that change. So if you're not so process oriented, because project management very much falls on the side of, here are the steps we need to take to move from place A to place B. If you're much more interested in how do we get people to embrace getting from point A to point B, change management would certainly be a great opportunity for you.

And those skill sets are very translatable as far as, again, the soft skills and working with people. I would certainly suggest that as a potential opportunity as well. 

Kelsey Alpaio: What is one thing our listeners could start doing this week to move closer to a senior PM role? 

Logan Langin: I've got a more of a philosophical thought to this.

One thing that they could be doing this week. I certainly think from an actionable standpoint, really take some time to. Do a skills gap analysis on what you have versus what you don't today. Sit down and really think through what are the projects that I've done in my career and what is a senior project manager role looking for?

What am I seeing in the job descriptions? What am I hearing in the interviews? What am I hearing from other senior PMs, and where are those gaps for me and how can I start developing out those skills over the course of the next three months, six months? Certainly don't stop applying. But if there are gaps that you're identifying in that skills gap analysis, start working on them and start incorporating some of that information into your resume to make you a stronger candidate.

But something I would certainly say to project managers as they're going through this process, and they might feel like I did where they were, felt like they were getting rejected constantly and they weren't necessarily representing themselves as well as they would've liked. I can certainly empathize with that.

It's a lonely feeling. Give yourself grace. Recognize that these things take a lot of time, and for the most part, the way that you're gonna succeed in this is through trial and error. You're going to put yourself out there. You're gonna get rejected. Make sure that you're evaluating why you're getting rejected.

Where are the areas that you're hearing, either repeated areas where you should be working on or marketing yourself better, and start taking those things into account and. Again, if you already have that skillset, awesome. Start incorporating it into the language that you're using in your resume, as well as in interviews.

If you don't start to think about how you can start building and incorporating that as soon as possible. 

Kelsey Alpaio: Great. Great note to end on. Thank you so much for spending time with us today, Logan. 

Logan Langin: Absolutely. I appreciate the offer to be here. Thank you.

Kelsey Alpaio: That's it for today's Retro. Be sure to follow the show so you never miss an episode. And if you wanna keep the conversation going with a crew of a thousand plus project management pros who get it, come join us at thedpm.com/membership. Thanks for listening!