In an era marked by rapid technological evolution, project managers stand at the forefront, uniquely positioned to harness these changes to deliver strategic value. The burgeoning world of generative AI offers both challenges and opportunities.
Galen Low is joined by Jean Kang (Founder of Path To PM), Ordonna Sargeant (Director of Data Governance), Mukhtar Kadiri (Program Director at WorkTipsPro) to explore the current landscape and future directions for project managers.
Interview Highlights
- Jean on AI in Project Management [00:29]
- Jean Kang, a former Figma program manager and career coach, launched a course on using AI for project management on LinkedIn Learning.
- She received feedback questioning why the course focused specifically on project management rather than general AI.
- Jean finds this feedback interesting and believes that AI will naturally develop into specific use cases for different industries.
- Ordonna on AI and Data [01:20]
- Ordonna Sargeant, a Fortune 500 digital program manager, recently hosted an event on data and AI.
- The event highlighted the many potential uses of Generative AI, such as monitoring risk, improving customer understanding, and personalization.
- Mukhtar on Myths in Project Management [02:57]
- Mukhtar Kadiri is a speaker and coach helping people land high-paying project management roles through his coaching practice, WorkTipsPro.
- He frequently appears in feeds, podcasts, and speaking engagements.
- Mukhtar believes a common myth is that AI will take over jobs.
- He emphasizes that those who don’t learn to use the technology may be displaced, not project managers.
- Mukhtar is optimistic about the future, believing project management will play an important role in integrating AI into mainstream use.
The individuals who will be displaced are those who do not know how to use the technology. Project management is here to stay, and we will play an increasingly important role in helping to usher this technology into the mainstream.
Mukhtar Kadiri
- Current Challenges for Project Managers [03:55]
- Jean Kang acknowledges the layoffs but notes she hasn’t seen many project managers affected, mainly witnessing layoffs in sales, recruiting, and marketing.
- She believes project management is essential and here to stay.
- While at Figma, leadership prioritized hiring for PM-heavy roles, valuing those who can orchestrate, manage projects, and collaborate with stakeholders.
- Mukhtar agrees with Jean that while some project managers have been impacted by layoffs, they are not as affected as other functions.
- He notes that HR, recruiting, customer success, and software engineering roles have been more affected by layoffs.
- The current period is challenging even for software engineers, traditionally seen as stable.
- Mukhtar suggests that perceptions of PM layoffs may be heightened, but data does not show PMs are disproportionately impacted.
- Ordonna Sargeant observes more hiring for project management roles than layoffs.
- Companies are seeking individuals with project management skill sets, particularly those who can lead with autonomy and without direct authority.
- Employers seek people skilled in leading projects from start to finish, across various methodologies (waterfall, hybrid, agile).
- Ordonna recommends staying connected on LinkedIn with those posting roles, as they often share future opportunities.
- She concurs with the panel that project management layoffs are not as widespread.
- Jean Kang acknowledges the layoffs but notes she hasn’t seen many project managers affected, mainly witnessing layoffs in sales, recruiting, and marketing.
- Learning and Adapting to Generative AI [10:42]
- Jean suggests a twofold approach: mindset and tactical strategies.
- Mindset: Recognize that no one has fully figured out AI, even self-proclaimed experts, as it evolves rapidly.
- Tactical: Use microdose learning to avoid burnout and focus on learning that adds value to your workflow.
- Jean recommends setting expectations with your manager, seeking their support for AI learning, and using available resources (L&D budgets, LinkedIn Learning, Udemy, Coursera).
- Time blocking (1-2 hours a week) and applying new concepts to real projects can make learning manageable and practical.
- Ordonna emphasizes a cautious approach to using generative AI, particularly regarding data privacy with tools like ChatGPT.
- She advises improving prompt techniques and following industry trends, like hashtags on LinkedIn (e.g., #ChatGPT).
- Ordonna highlights PMI’s new course on generative AI for project managers, which is free for members.
- She encourages her team and graduate students to use ChatGPT tactically, comparing problem-solving approaches as new vs. experienced PMs.
- She emphasizes the importance of refining prompts to make AI more useful and effective for specific project management tasks.
- Mukhtar agrees with Jean and Ordonna that we’re still in the early stages of generative AI adoption.
- He recommends staying updated by exploring new materials, such as the PMI course and Jean’s course.
- Mukhtar suggests following industry thought leaders on LinkedIn who regularly share content on AI.
- He is a fan of podcasts, noting they offer a range of perspectives from deeply technical to business-oriented discussions.
- He emphasizes the importance of understanding AI’s role at the intersection of business and politics.
- Jean suggests a twofold approach: mindset and tactical strategies.
- Misconceptions About Project Management [17:21]
- Mukhtar identifies a common misconception that not getting a job is solely due to a poor resume.
- Many job seekers believe that improving their resume will solve their job search challenges, with some even hiring multiple resume writers.
- Mukhtar stresses that while a resume is important, it is not the only factor in landing a job.
- He advises job seekers to develop a comprehensive strategy, including networking, thought leadership, and social media.
- Mukhtar highlights the existence of a “hidden job market,” where many jobs are not posted publicly but obtained through connections and other avenues.
- He emphasizes the importance of diversifying job search efforts beyond just applying to posted roles.
- Jean identifies two misconceptions in project management: the belief that one must have all PM qualifications to secure a role and that lacking a PMP certification disqualifies them from applying.
- She shares her experience as a self-taught program manager, emphasizing that she successfully transitioned into the field without traditional qualifications.
- Jean recalls studying for the PMP but realized that her ability to think strategically and provide strong examples of her impact was what helped her land a program manager role at LinkedIn.
- She highlights the importance of articulating one’s skills and experiences to demonstrate capability, even without a formal title or certification.
- Donna points out a common misconception that project managers often fail to communicate their value effectively.
- She emphasizes that PMs tend to promote their team’s achievements instead of clearly stating their own contributions and successes.
- Donna suggests that PMs should highlight their strategic planning and facilitation skills in their resumes.
- She challenges the notion that LinkedIn is the only platform for self-promotion, encouraging PMs to create portfolios or personal websites.
- Donna created her own website, OrdonnaSGT.com, to showcase her passion for project management and enhance her visibility to potential employers.
- She notes that expressing genuine enthusiasm for project management can positively impact the impression made during interviews.
- Mukhtar identifies a common misconception that not getting a job is solely due to a poor resume.
- Negotiating High Salaries in Project Management [23:33]
- Mukhtar discusses factors contributing to higher salaries in project management roles.
- Key differences include skills, experience, and leadership roles, as those leading projects typically earn more.
- Companies are developing clear career tracks for project management, allowing for progression into higher-paying roles.
- Specialized skill sets, such as cybersecurity and cloud technology, are increasingly in demand and can lead to higher earnings.
- Mukhtar emphasizes the importance of mindset in salary negotiation, noting many individuals hesitate to negotiate even when qualified.
- He shares an example of successfully encouraging a client to negotiate a better offer, highlighting the need for self-advocacy.
- The Value of Dedicated Project Managers [27:36]
- Donna emphasizes the importance of dedicated project managers and the need for complex project management skills.
- She argues that SMEs can become overwhelmed with project updates and strategic decisions, which are better handled by project managers.
- Donna highlights the critical role of project managers in assessing risks, communicating with stakeholders, and managing project timelines and constraints.
- She asserts that while AI tools can assist with project management tasks, human involvement is essential for effective communication and decision-making within teams.
- Jean agrees with Donna about the necessity of dedicated project managers in tech roles.
- She likens PMs to quarterbacks, emphasizing their central role in coordinating team efforts and ensuring project success.
- Jean highlights the importance of having a trusted individual for leaders to rely on for managing projects effectively.
- She notes that PMs handle numerous deliverables and intricate details, providing peace of mind for leadership and team members alike.
- The presence of a dedicated PM allows for smoother project execution and better orchestration of team activities.
- Donna emphasizes the importance of dedicated project managers and the need for complex project management skills.
Project managers are like quarterbacks; there are different members on the team, but you always have a starting quarterback and a backup as well.
Jean Kang
- Future-Proofing Your Project Management Career [33:03]
- Mukhtar emphasizes the importance of building relationships for PMs to stay relevant over the next three to five years.
- He suggests regular 15-minute coffee chats to establish connections, potentially reaching up to 100 people.
- Building relationships should be mutual, providing value to others while also gaining support.
- The second key focus is on “receipts,” or evidence of skills and accomplishments.
- PMs should create portfolios showcasing their work and contributions.
- He encourages PMs to build their thought leadership online by consistently sharing insights and engaging with the community.
- Mukhtar shares a personal anecdote where his online content led to recognition during a job interview, highlighting the impact of showcasing expertise.
- Donna stresses the importance of staying updated on emerging roles in the project management field, such as AI prompt engineer and generative design specialist.
- She encourages individuals to explore new trends and understand the responsibilities of these roles.
- Networking through coffee chats is suggested as a way to learn from others and gain insights into their experiences.
- Engaging with content on platforms like LinkedIn can lead to valuable conversations about future market developments.
- Donna highlights the significance of being aware of new roles and titles, as they are frequently discussed in publications like Forbes.
- She notes that project managers are needed to oversee new initiatives, such as Gen AI projects, to ensure their success and adaptability.
- Jean advises individuals to invest in their personal brand, emphasizing the importance of a polished profile on LinkedIn and creating a portfolio to showcase personality and skills.
- She suggests using various platforms, like Instagram, to express oneself beyond traditional resumes.
- Adopting AI tools in project management workflows is recommended to enhance efficiency, such as automating meeting notes and improving presentation building.
- Jean stresses the importance of developing soft skills, particularly strategic thinking and effective communication.
- She highlights the value of thinking several steps ahead (5 to 10 steps) and mastering change management to ensure sustainable results post-launch.
- Engaging with leaders in the industry is encouraged to gain insights into decision-making processes and priorities.
- Mukhtar emphasizes the importance of building relationships for PMs to stay relevant over the next three to five years.
- Tips for Securing Project Management Internships [40:29]
- Mukhtar acknowledges that project management roles are often not seen as entry-level positions, making it challenging to find internships.
- He suggests considering entry-level positions like project coordinator or project assistant as alternatives to gain relevant experience.
- Temporary or contract roles through agency recruiters can also provide opportunities to build skills and experience in project management.
- Mukhtar notes that dedicated project management internships are rare, as the role is typically considered more senior.
- Donna mentions that companies like Google offer internship programs, though they can be competitive to enter.
- She recommends following specific hashtags on LinkedIn, such as #ChatGPT, #ProjectManager, #ITProjectManager, and #DataGovernance, to discover internship opportunities.
- It’s beneficial to search for hashtags related to “Project Management Internship” or simply “Internship.”
- Donna suggests also exploring platforms like TikTok for potential internship leads, despite its chaotic nature.
- She emphasizes the importance of broadening search efforts and looking for internships early, particularly from February to May for summer positions.
- Jean agrees with Mukhtar about the scarcity of internship roles but has noticed some opportunities appearing on sites like ZipRecruiter and Indeed.
- She suggests using keywords to search for internships on LinkedIn, particularly the hashtag #Hiring to identify companies that are hiring.
- Jean highlights the value of reaching out directly to hiring companies, which she considers an underrated strategy.
- She mentions considering rotational programs offered by major companies like Google, Meta, or Amazon as a pathway into the field.
- Mukhtar acknowledges that project management roles are often not seen as entry-level positions, making it challenging to find internships.
Meet Our Guests
Jean Kang is a trailblazing career coach and seven-times career pivoter paving the path for future program managers.
Jean worked in Project/Program Management and Operations at leading companies such as Meta, Pinterest, Intuit, LinkedIn and now Figma. She is the founder and CEO of Path to PM, a coaching service helping career pivoters and aspiring PM professionals land dream jobs without PMP certifications. On LinkedIn, Jean shares daily valuable project/program management and career tips She is also the creator of a popular course on Maven, helping professionals pivot to Program Management. Her content-packed weekly newsletter and guide provide actionable advice for driving impactful programs and supercharging your career.
Be in the rooms with leaders, as this will greatly enhance your understanding of how they make decisions, what they care about, and what questions they may have.
Jean Kang
Mukhtar Kadiri specializes in helping people land 100-300K PM roles. With his expertise in career coaching, job search strategies and project/program management, he revamps your approach, showcases your unique value, and helps you overcome the obstacles holding you back so you can land the role you want, get paid what you’re worth, live the lifestyle you desire and are able to plan for the future.
You need both the skills and experience, but having the right mindset—knowing that you can negotiate and advocate for yourself—is also very important.
Mukhtar Kadiri
Ordonna Sargeant is the Director of Data Governance at American Express where she leads the development and implementation of data quality, security and compliance standards and policies across the enterprise. She is also an Adjunct Professor at Metropolitan College of New York, where I teach courses on project management.
Not everyone enjoys project management, so bringing someone into the group who loves it can make a significant difference.
Ordonna Sargeant
Resources From This Episode:
- Join DPM Membership
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- Connect with Jean, Mukhtar, and Ordonna on LinkedIn
Related Articles And Podcasts:
Galen Low: Hey everyone, welcome to our panel discussion on how project managers can deliver strategic value in a generative AI world. We do events like this every month as a way for our members and our VIP guests to engage directly with the experts who contribute to the Digital Project Manager. For those of you who don't know me, my name is Galen. I'm the co-founder of the Digital Project Manager and I will be your host for today. Let's meet our panelists.
First up, we have ex-Figma program manager, career coach, and general good human, Ms. Jean Kang. Jean, you recently launched a course on LinkedIn Learning about using AI for project management. And I was going to put you on the spot and just ask you, what is the strangest piece of feedback that you've gotten about it since it's gone live?
Jean Kang: So it's not that strange, but I got some pushback in the sense that they said, why is it specifically for project management? Why can't it just be like a general AI like tutorial? And so I thought that was very interesting. And I didn't have the opportunity to say it back to him, but I think as AI develops, we're going to see specific use cases, or different niches, or different industries, it's just gonna, it's bound to happen, so.
Galen Low: That is juicy, and I think we will get into that as well. Thanks for being here.
Next up, we've also got, tell me if I'm underselling you, Ordonna, but we've got Fortune 500 digital program manager and badass PM coach, Ordonna Sargeant. It's always a pleasure having you on. We were talking in the green room about just how much fun it is having you as part of these events. I was creeping you on Insta, and I noticed that you had just hosted an event on data and AI. And I was wondering if you could share just what your most inspiring takeaway from that experience was?
Ordonna Sargeant: First of all, thank you for having me here. Really excited to be here. It's always a lot of fun. Your panels are always fun. And I think one of the best takeaways from the data and AI summit that we had was there's just so much that we can do with Gen AI and there are so many PLCs happening currently. So they're working on different ways that we can use AI, whether it's to monitor risk or to understand our customers better, or personalization, but there's so many different ways that they're looking at it.
But of course, we are risk adverse, so we are taking our time and making sure that it's not biased and that we're being safe about the data, but it was fantastic. I was really excited about it.
Galen Low: Love that. Yeah, I was just at the collision conference in Toronto and it was all AI, of course, and all of these startups, right?
All of these proof of concept and startup organizations, but it was very much, the theme was very much pump the brakes. Everyone was talking about pump the brakes. There's so many things we could do, we can do. Tech is enabling it, but should we, so we will dive a little bit more into that as well. Thanks so much.
Our third panelist is Mukhtar Kadiri, a speaker and coach who helps people land high paying PM roles through his coaching practice, WorkTipsPro. Mukhtar, you've been everywhere lately. You've been in my feed everywhere. You've been on podcasts. You've been doing speaking engagements. You've been doing kids birthday parties.
I was wondering what's a myth that keeps coming up that in your opinion needs to be dispelled about project management or AI or career development in general?
Mukhtar Kadiri: What's a myth that needs to be dispelled? I think one myth is that AI will contact our jobs, and you probably heard the same that it's not the people that are going to get displaced are people that don't know how to use the technology.
So I think that's one myth I think that project management is here to stay and we're going to play an increase in important role in terms of even helping ushering this technology into mainstream. So I think that's one myth and I have an optimistic view on that.
Galen Low: I couldn't have created a better segue.
So it is June in 2024, and I think it's fair to say that this isn't the easiest time to be a project manager. I mean, our roles have been impacted by waves of layoffs, especially in the tech sector. We have this rapid adoption of generative AI tools. And just generally, the global economy is pretty uncertain right now.
But Mukhtar, to your point, rather than be negative about it, we thought we'd just give this all an optimistic spin today and talk about how we can use this opportunity to reframe the strategic value of the project manager and arm you all with a plan not just to survive, but hopefully thrive as a PM today, tomorrow and maybe for the next decade ahead.
Okay. Tall, taller, that might've been an oversell, but that's the lens that we're putting on this. So I thought we dive in today and just explore and maybe I'll just start with the present day stuff. And I'm going to pick on Jean for this one, but I'll hear from all the panelists as well.
Here's the thing I'm seeing right now. I'm seeing all these like skills reports and job market reports and LinkedIn and other sources and they've all listed project management as one of the most in demand skills today. So why do you think it is that it seems like project managers are getting laid off in droves?
Jean Kang: So I have seen the report. It was floating on LinkedIn and I was like, heck yes, like we need this. This is so true. I'll have a different point of view on this. On my LinkedIn for the past two years, and I've seen a lot of the tech layoffs, right? I've had family and friends impacted. I actually have not seen project managers, program managers get laid off.
The functions and roles that I have seen get laid off predominantly have been around either sales, recruiting, marketing. That's just me. I'm not saying that it's not happening, but that's just what I've seen. And I'll just take it back off of Mukhtar and say that I do believe that project management is here to stay.
Quick context. When I was at Figma three months ago, before I quit, I was part of those hiring conversations as well. We're hunkering down on budget. What roles do we invest in? And I kid you not, the leadership team all want to invest in the roles that are very PM heavy, right? You might not have that title, but they want someone who can orchestrate, who can drive projects, who can work with different stakeholders, who can get stuff done. So that's my stance.
Galen Low: I really appreciate that. So everybody connect with Jean because people who are connected with her are still they're kicking butt in their jobs. No, I appreciate that other lens because honestly, sometimes, if y'all don't mind me saying so. Sometimes the headlines are so sensational these days.
And they seem like just one thing, Oh gosh, like everything's going wrong. Doesn't mean it's going wrong everywhere. It's a thing. Absolutely. I've had folks, impacted by layoffs in NPM roles as well, but doesn't mean it's everywhere. It doesn't mean it's all doom. So I appreciate that.
Mukhtar, I'm going to throw to you, what have you been seeing in your work, in, in your journeys and adventures out there? Are you seeing folks getting impacted by layoffs on the PM world?
Mukhtar Kadiri: I would say that, yes, some PMs have been impacted, but I concur with Jean. I haven't seen as many PMs compared to other functions, right?
So I think I was even, looking at the study there, somebody analyzed what roles were affected. And on top of that list is people in HR recruiting, right? They tend to, unfortunately, you let go first. And then there was, people in the customer success function, and then we now had software engineers, right?
And, this period that we're in is particularly bad because a lot of times software engineering was looked at as this ticket right to, it's very stable, but now we're seeing a lot of software engineers being laid off. So I think that there's several functions before we even start thinking of project management.
So I would say that maybe this is one of those cases where, how maybe you're looking for a new car and you're trying to buy this particular, brand and all of a sudden you start seeing that car around you. So maybe that's what's happening, but I would say, I don't believe the data bears it out that, project managers are being overrepresented in layoff statistics.
Galen Low: Yeah, I mean, like we said at the top in some ways there is strain on the economy overall, businesses, they're dealing with uncertainty, ambiguity, and, they have to make things work. And yeah, like you said about shopping for a car, I totally hear you. It seems like now everywhere I look, it's like project managers and job struggles.
But it doesn't mean it's not also affecting other professions as well. Yeah. And I hear you about the developer thing. I've watched people go through that wave. Yeah, this is a safe job. Everything needs code. Like we're not, nothing's going to replace us yet. And then I have colleagues who are learning Python through ChatGPT. So, there you go.
Donna, I might put you on the spot a little bit here and just say are you noticing some folks in your circles or even where you're at right now, like trying to pick up project management talent? I mean, there's a lot of transformation happening. There's a lot of projects. What are you seeing in terms of folks who are hiring and sort of the reasons behind that?
Ordonna Sargeant: I really do agree with what was said prior. I am seeing more on the hiring side than not. And they are looking for people with a project management skill set. So, I have yet to see anyone saying, project management is overrated.
They're looking for people who can lead without authority. You can lead with autonomy. They're looking for that skill set. I have heard about different positions at different levels. There is, managers, directors, VPs, and they're like, well, we need someone who has project management skill set.
And when you're looking at the different roles that I've seen, they're still looking for individuals who know how to lead a project from beginning to closure, especially doing different types of methodologies. Because some teams are still doing waterfall. Lots of teams are doing hybrid where their senior management just wants a date.
Whereas the team is working in an agile, rollout. So I think that it's really important that you do stay closer to the actual leads that you might have on LinkedIn, people you're following. When you see someone who's posting a role, follow them because they will likely post again. There's a lot of those types of things that I do to stay close to who's hiring and who's not.
Because I do have friends who are looking, but I haven't seen as much layoffs too. I can agree.
Galen Low: There you go. Love that. And thank you for mentioning that too, because in a lot of cases, it's not always like project manager as a title, I'm imagining. You mentioned roles, VPs and otherwise delivering is a skill. The title is not what's that important. It's sort of the responsibility and the skill set. We're going to dive into that a little bit later on. Absolutely. But thank you for teasing that. Appreciate it.
I get to shift into something a bit more tactical. Because people keep saying, myself included, that generative AI is providing an opportunity for project managers to become more strategic. But also you have to learn these tools and it seems like that's a full time job as well. I thought maybe Donna and Jean, maybe you could share what you think the key is to doing both at the same time. Like how can we be strategic and also learn these new tools as our like role gets disrupted?
Jean, what have you been seeing?
Jean Kang: I would say there's like a two fold approach. One is mindset and the other is tactical. I would say the mindset piece is recognizing that nobody really has AI figured out, even though they might say that they are an AI grew, it's just evolving so much. And even though I'm, of course, built on it, I still don't consider myself an expert.
Just the lens that I'll provide is even when I was building out that course, I had to recognize that one and then two, micro dose learning. That's what I did. How do I learn without burning out? Right? How do I learn that will help me get value for myself in my own workflow. If you are working right now, some tactically, some things you can do is one, I think it's really helpful to set expectations with your manager.
Hey, I'm really invested in learning more about AI and how it can help my work and how it can help drive our projects. That's one. See if they're willing to support you, tap into your L&D budget. And they might recommend some things, right? They might have a curated list of AI courses, or you can crowdsource them.
So there's so many gems just to tap into with your peers, right? LinkedIn Learning is one of them, Udemy, Coursera, so on and so forth. And then tactically time blocking. That's what I did. Just commit to one or two hours a week, do it on a lunch break, learn the concepts and then directly apply it. But apply it to a specific situation or maybe it's, I want to identify some risks and like the likelihood of these risks for X project.
That's what I've seen work really well for me.
Galen Low: Well, that must've been your favorite micro dosing sort of lesson, I guess in AI.
Jean Kang: Something that I've done recently for project management and also just other use cases is I'm going through an issue right now. Here's the pushback that I'm getting. Here's a situation. Here's a context. Let's role play together. So I thought that's been a really interesting way for me to open up my mind and think through just, let's tackle this from different angles. And that helps to be strategic too.
Galen Low: I know, I love what you said earlier because the strategic part is yeah, go to your boss, go to your manager, go to the leadership team and mention this. That in itself is strategic, right? You're like, hey, I'm keen, I'm interested I can be also that person that learns the AI stuff, right? Is great at my job, maybe can teach the organization as well there's a strategy to that as well. I think that's clever.
Donna, how about you? What kinds of things are you recommending for your team to get up to speed with Gen AI without sort of getting rolled into this massive hamster wheel of, trying to drink the ocean?
Ordonna Sargeant: There's a few things. What I think is truly important is finding opportunities to educate and upgrade how you prompt ChatGPT.
So because just like Jean mentioned, it is ever evolving and quickly, what I've found helpful is to follow hashtags. So I follow a hashtag ChatGPT on LinkedIn. PMI just dropped a new course. The first one they did for generative AI was free. This one is free if you're a member, $20 if not. But it's the data landscape for gen AI project managers.
So what I do is I try to stay really close to not only the trends that are happening by industry leaders, but also those who are actually doing the work. So when I'm looking for my new PMs that are getting their degree, I'm asking them, I want you to use ChatGPT, and I want you to ask how can you solve this project, but as a new PM versus how you would solve this specific problem as a tenured program manager. See what the differences are.
I want you to ask for a chart that's going to break down the pros and cons or the constraints of this project and what the potential outcomes could be. I try to make them use it. A huge part of it is using it tactically and then also finding out how can you make your prompts smarter and work for you?
Galen Low: I love that. Like hot tip with the hashtag thing. That's great. I'm doing that right after this wraps. And also I really liked that because you have this like sort of tone of voice or whatever, we have a lot of prompts that are like act as a, whatever, very good, very professional project manager, and then give me the answer.
But I love that idea of comparing the two, like what is like the beginner sort of, response from chat versus what it would respond with if, it was assuming that you were more experienced and senior. That's very cool.
Mukhtar, how about you? Any any gen AI sort of learning tips, how to get up to speed with it without getting overwhelmed?
Mukhtar Kadiri: Yeah. I mean, I think the other two speakers covered it. It's really, we're at the beginning. So it's really just getting plugged into new materials, for example, the PMI course is a good one. Jean's course, you can take a look at that. And I would also say just listening to industry thought leaders, where there are a lot of people that regularly churn out content on LinkedIn.
So plug it into that. And I'm also a huge fan of podcasts, right? So I like, and you can find podcasts along the technical spectrum. There's some that are really deeply technical, and then there are some that sort of, are speaking to a business audience, right? So, I'm a huge fan of those just, how can AI be very applicable and also understanding this technology vis a vis the intersection of like business and politics.
So, yeah, that would be my addition just also plugging into podcasts as well.
Galen Low: It's also it's in a similar vein to what Donna said, right? Where you can like, just because you're not the target audience for a podcast doesn't mean you can't listen to it and get a sense of what that audience is interested in.
So, like In the agency world, I was like, should I listen to an agency owner podcast? Yeah, why not? Because then I know what the leadership team is thinking about, talking about, what do they care about? What are the big decisions are they weighing? That's strategic to me. Love that.
I'm switching directions a little bit, so bear with me. But some of the things that I see happening these days is almost an amplification of misconceptions about project managers because I see a lot of, Oh, AI is doing this now. So sorry, I guess you're out of a job. And I'm like, I don't know.
I don't think it's like replacing me. And then you're like, wait a minute, people don't understand what project managers do still. And you all are coaches, you're all working with project managers and other professionals trying to grow their careers. And I thought maybe I just do a round of what's the biggest misconception about project managers that your clients are up against these days?
Mukhtar, I might pick on you first.
Mukhtar Kadiri: Yeah, so there are a lot. So I guess in the context of trying to get a job, one of the biggest misconceptions is, okay, I'm not getting a job, then it must be my resume. So that's a big one. And then you have people, okay, I paid $300 to get my resume rewritten. Now, I had somebody who actually had 10 different resume writers, right?
The resume is one thing, but then I think anybody looking for a role or looking to get to that next level, they should have a strategy, right? So the resume is important, but it's not all that there is, right? So do you have a networking strategy? Do you have a thought leadership strategy? Do you have a social media strategy?
So there are all these things because there are all these different channels where you can get a job. And, you've probably heard this, but some people say that about 70 to 80 or to 90 percent of the jobs are part of the hidden job market. If we're gonna, I'm not sure the veracity of that, but you know, a lot of jobs actually gotten through the job market, even from my own personal experience.
So you want to open up avenues so that you can also get jobs, from the job market and not just what's posted there. So I would say that's one of the big misconceptions that is like, it's just my resume. That's why I'm not getting a job.
Galen Low: I love that. Yeah, we're always trying to look good on paper, but that's not the only way to pitch yourself. Love that.
Jean, how about you? What are some misconceptions that you see out there in the world that folks are struggling with in the project management world?
Jean Kang: I would say the two flavors of this and they're correlated. The first lens is I don't have the, all the PM qualifications to land a project manager role, that's one. And then tangentially, it's I don't have the PMP, so I don't think that I'm qualified to go for this role.
Those are misconceptions because just from my own background and dealing with a podcast on this, I'm a self-taught program manager. I pivoted into this field. I remember studying for the PMP because I also thought the same thing, but the lightbulb moment was when I landed my very first full time program manager job at LinkedIn.
I was a customer success manager at Pinterest at the time, but what got me that job was my ability to think strategically about the questions and my responses have plenty of strong examples that demonstrate that I am a program manager without the title and articulating that impact that I've had.
That's what makes you shine.
Galen Low: I love that. And honestly, I think flipping that lens, right? There's also this misconception sometimes from folks who are hiring. They're like, Oh, I need a PMP. Someone's got to have their PMP. That's how I know it's going to be okay. And I don't blame PMI for this. I see this arc happening right now.
It's just okay, well, what letters do people who I'm competing with have next to their name? And then, yeah, maybe I'll have to go get those. But yeah, flipping that sort of misconception around. If anyone's out there going oh man, I can't afford someone who has a PMP yet, because it's a designation that means you have lots of experience.
You've gotten the hours, you've gotten the training. It's not like a beginner designation. It is a experience designation. And sometimes people get stuck in a rut because they're like I need to hire someone who's got a PMP. You probably don't.
Donna, how about you? What's your favorite misconception about project managers these days?
Ordonna Sargeant: One of my favorites is, I've seen this a long time, people do not know how to communicate their value. So I think what gets lost is if you can get the resume to hit the right lights and get your name through, I think oftentimes, as PMs, we might promote what the team did. We might say, well, that wasn't exactly my title or my role, but I helped.
It sounds very and I understand it's supportive. However, you need to be able to bring to the table exactly what you did to be successful, what strategic planning you led and facilitated. And then also I think people believe you only can use LinkedIn. There are lots of ways to market yourself, right? And I worked with a lot of technical leads and I was like, they have portfolios. Can project managers have portfolios?
So I was like, I'm just going to make a website. So I decided to make OrdonnaSGT.com specifically because I wanted people to be able to sign in. I wanted people to, if you were to Google me or if when I'm applying for a job, you can see I legitimately love this. This is something I actually enjoy doing and it takes a special person to want to be in the middle of the chaos, but I love project management and I wanted that to be obvious, right?
And it doesn't have to be the comma behind your name that makes it obvious that this is something you enjoy doing and not everyone enjoys project management. So to bring someone to the group that loves it, goes a long way. And I have been told on multiple occasions during my interview process that I was like, you obviously like this.
And it's obvious that I do. And I think bringing that piece of yourself when you're trying to promote your skill set really goes a long way. And some, I think oftentimes people are struggling with that.
Galen Low: I love how that passion shines through and flip that lens around again, right? Those misconceptions of PMs don't really do anything.
They just support the work, right? And then they're like, most PMs are crabby like they probably just have to do this job because they don't specialize in anything else. But like just saying you love it is actually just puts you ahead of the pack like immediately. And you know, maybe this isn't related but really secretly I just wanted to shove this question in because I'm curious about Mukhtar.
Mukhtar, some of what you do is helping to negotiate higher salaries for project managers, talking like six figure territory. And I was just wondering what are some of the things that make a sort of high paying six figure salary role different than a lower earning role in project management? And then just spicy question to add to that, do you envision that AI is going to start closing this gap between the folks who are getting paid the big bucks and the folks who are probably underpaid?
Yeah. What are those differences? Is that gap changing?
Mukhtar Kadiri: That's a really spicy question. So what really makes somebody earn higher? So there are a few things. First of all, obviously there is the skills and the experience that you possess, right? So people might just tend to get more money than, the people that are leading, right?
So, that's pretty obvious. But there's also the IC track, when it comes to project, right? The individual contributor track, right? And I see a lot of companies now actually really fleshing out that project management track, right? So a program management track, so you might have a program manager, senior lead staff, and then principal, right?
I'm seeing more of that. So obviously, that gives you an alternative route to also progress and still command high six figure. The third component is now having specialized skillset, cybersecurity, for example, that's a very in demand skill. Cloud technology, although a lot of people have that, but it's still like a lot of people still want to migrate to the cloud.
They still want to move, their infrastructure from on premise to the cloud. So, so that's still an in demand skillset. And of course, there's AI and there are things like, data centers and all of that. So having specialized skills that also helps you to command more dollars.
But I would say besides all of this, you need to just really believe that you can command that. Because one of the big things that I see is that many people are scared to negotiate. Actually, I helped somebody negotiate just recently and this person worked at a top tech company. This person is just brilliant.
But they were just ready to just accept the offer right there because they've been looking for a job for a very long time. Right? So I had to really push them and say, no, what's the worst that can happen? You've they've come all this way. They really want you, right? So that mindset shift is really what keeps a lot of people back from negotiating.
But just to answer your question, just briefly, of course, you have to have the skills and experience, but the mindset, just knowing that you can negotiate and you can advocate for yourself, that is something that's also very important as well.
Galen Low: I love that. We just did like a salary survey and, it was all over the map to be honest with you.
It can send a message really. Right? My own sort of personal opinion on it is okay, I guess this is the band where I'm worth something. And outside of that, I'm not. Whereas if you were to flip it and be like, well, what's the value actually of me doing a good job there? And like you said Journey to Cloud stuff?
These are multi-million dollar programs. They matter. And I think the other thing that's really interesting there is sometimes we're like, okay, back to that misconception. Okay, there's a misconception that project managers, they specialize in project delivery. Yes, of course we do. There is a whole other level of that conversation that's can you also specialize in other things?
Can you be someone who's really good at understanding how to lead a cloud migration project or cyber security project? And does that put you into a better position where, yeah, absolutely, if I was in cyber security and I had two candidates and I've walked down the garden path with them and one of them is okay, well, I'm a cyber security expert.
The other one's I'm a generalist. I just deliver projects. There's a lot there to think about. I'm not saying one is better than the other, but there's a lot more in that conversation about, okay. They're specialists at delivering, they've got the experience, and they know cyber security. They're not gonna go in and be like, just like any other project.
Don't get me wrong, there's a whole school of thought that's we just have to be good at delivering projects and you can deliver any projects, and I also believe that. But in the marketplace, I love that idea that you can actually narrow your specialization, or at least have those cards up your sleeve, so that when you're going after that cyber security job, you can be like, yeah, here's me.
I wanted to circle back to something that we were talking about earlier. Donna, you had brought it up. This notion that project management is in demand. The project manager title might not be, it might not look like there's a plethora of opportunities out there if you just went into LinkedIn or Indeed and searched project manager.
And honestly, there's a lot of folks today delivering projects that don't self identify as project managers. I mean, I talk to a lot of product managers, like technology managers, marketing people, all these folks that we call SMEs, they're like, yeah, I'm doing projects, I'm leading projects.
And I'm just curious for that perspective, maybe from all of you, of is there still value in having a dedicated project manager role? Especially, as we're sort of positioning this value of, well, maybe actually some of the SMEs can lead the project. Seems to be going fine. They're delivering informal projects informally, and they're going well. How do you frame the value of a dedicated project manager who has that project manager title?
Maybe I will start with Donna.
Ordonna Sargeant: That's a great question. Even when I was hired here at AmEx, the role was Data Governance Director Program Enablement. It's like, wow, interesting. Right? So, that's a mouthful. And, I didn't have specifically governance, not the way that we do it here. Background, however, they needed someone with complex project management experience. And I think the value in having a dedicated project manager, especially when I look back on some of the extremely intense projects I've been on specifically in agency life.
It would have been totally unfair to the SME would have been completely inundated with giving updates across up to management when a project or money was now at risk because, I did the project with Bartman Thompson during COVID and they said, well, what if we stop the project? What would happen?
And it was the project manager and my director who had to get together and make sure that we had a strategic response to that. You wouldn't have the same team. You'd lose some of your momentum. You would have to do rework. Like that whole approach and being able to provide them with a strategy and even project or have a forecast around how much they would lose in terms of money.
That's not an SME. That's a PM and that's a PM skill set. Being able to communicate that without being painfully nervous, right? Because everyone's role was in your hands, right? People would have lost their jobs if this project would have went under. There is value in having someone who is dedicated to monitoring the timelines.
If something should go wrong to brainstorm and how are we going to pivot? Can we absorb this delay? All of those skill sets and managing constraints, that's a thing that a PM does on a day-to-day basis, that is not always specific to a certain market and it's needed. Right? So I would just say that it's important that PMs are still involved and these, some of the things that I just mentioned, you can put it into ChatGPT and AI, but you need an actual person.
Right? Who can be involved and make sure that they are appealing to who they need to talk to and making sure that everyone on the team understands exactly what it is that they need to deliver. So I hope that was helpful.
Galen Low: Love that. That's the craft.
Jean, are you has that been your experience as well? Like in some of the roles you've seen and been in, in the tech sector?
Jean Kang: Yeah, I mean, honestly, hold on. Every word that just came out of your mouth, it resonated with me so deeply down to like having a ridiculous title to like the expectation versus reality. And so I'll just echo, yes, dedicated PMs highly necessary.
I would say in an analogy form, PMs are like the quarterback, right? There are different members on the team, but you always have a quarterback and like a backup quarterback as well. And what I've realized is even with my I reported into our senior director, sometimes I'll have this surprise project come out of nowhere, but it's because for a leader, they want like one trusted person that they can just have peace knowing that this project is going to run smoothly with their control, with their influence.
And so that gives other teams, because PMs are managing groups of people at a time, right? And there's so many intricate little deliverables and things that are happening, but there's just so much piece control that comes from one person managing the different pieces and orchestrating that.
Galen Low: Love that way. Yes. Conductor of the orchestra. I love using the word orchestration, orchestrate, orchestra. It's just fun to say.
I want to get to an important question about the future of project management in a gen AI future, gen AI, I probably should have learned to say that before this panel, in an AI-laden future. But I thought I might take a little bit of a pause here.
I just wanted to pause and say thank you everybody for joining. It's been great having everybody here and it's just so encouraging I guess to see an interest in this conversation and I see the chat, I see you chat, I know I haven't been talking about it a lot but I see such good information being shared and that is absolutely what we need.
I guess maybe back to our regular scheduled programming, it's June 2024, but careers aren't just about today, they're about the future, it's a livelihood thing. And the big question is, all right, what should PM start doing differently today that's going to keep them relevant over the next three to five years?
I used to say 10 years, but I'm like, that's a little far to look out. We don't even know what's going to happen with tech and with industry. But over the next three to five years, what's something that a PM can start doing differently today that they haven't been doing before that's going to keep them relevant in the future? I'm going to go to Mukhtar first.
Mukhtar Kadiri: That's a very good question and I usually like to boil things down into two. So I would say, relationships and receipts and relationships you know because a lot of times people buy things from people that they like and they trust, so just get into the habit of just building relationships regularly.
It could be 15 minute coffee chats every week, and that adds up, right? So that's about 50 people. If you do twice a week, that's about a hundred people. So I'll say just, learning to build relationships that, that will bring you value and that you can also, contribute to that, right?
Because there's also fulfillment in adding value to other people's lives. And then the second thing is receipts, basically, because a lot of PMs claim even just going back to the discussion about PMP and all of that. So there are a lot of people out there that claim that they can do stuff, right?
But what's the evidence? What's the proof, right? So one example could be having a portfolio like, or Donna mentioned that is the evidence of what I can't do. Right? So you don't need to have me go through 10 interview rounds for you to know what I'm capable of doing or just building your thought leadership online.
Right? That's consistency and just regularly showing up, and contributing to the conversation, those are receipts. I'm just going to, just a quick story. One time I got called for an interview with a top tech company and one of the person, one of the interviewers told me, all right, I'm just going to shut up because I've actually benefited from your content.
So I'm just going to let my colleague actually just do the questioning. Right? So, so that's an example of your receipt, right? So just to answer your question, what can you do next three to five years? I would just say, focus on receipts and building relationships.
Galen Low: I love that people side of things too. Right? In a AI world, actually, maybe the optimistic side is it might bring people together.
Donna, how about you?
Ordonna Sargeant: So something that I mention often to individuals, a lot of the roles that did not exist five years ago were murmurs, right? So if you can stay close to what are the new roles that are coming out, right?
So there is an AI prompt engineer, generative design specialist, an AI input or output manager. Find out what they do. Find out what this is. Stay close to what the trends are and how they're growing, attending things like this, and then also just was just mentioned with regard to ask for a coffee chat.
Reach out and say, I'd love for us to set up some time to learn a little bit about what you've done and or if you didn't get to go to a certain session and you saw it on LinkedIn, just say, I was so impressed. I'd love to, just pick your brain for 15 minutes. I learned so much from just your post, but if you have an opportunity to chat, I'd love to.
So playing back or plugging back to what they actually did, that is tied to future things that you see building in the market, I think is really key because there is so much coming. And I couldn't today, June 2024, say exactly what the new role will be in 2025, but Forbes is looking and there are other places that are posting where these brand new roles and titles are.
So if you can stay closer to that, I think that's important. Last little plug is, all of these different PLCs that they're having at AmEx have a PM assigned to them. So you will be the PM of the Gen AI project, like those projects need someone to track and see whether or not they were successful and how do we pivot and how do we iterate.
So those would be my clubs.
Galen Low: Boom, love that. There's something poetic in that too. As you were saying that, I'm like, okay, ChatGPT is great. It knows stuff about the past. Chat with people is how you're going to know what's going to happen in the future.
Ordonna Sargeant: Yeah, agreed.
Galen Low: Jean, how about you? What's your tip for folks of what they can do differently to be relevant over the next three to five years as a project person?
Jean Kang: Just a few things that come to mind. In the same vein of what Ordonna and Mukhtar said, invest in your personal brand. Each of us, we have invested in it. And it doesn't have to be on LinkedIn. If you like, most of your employers and colleagues are on LinkedIn, so it is important that you have at least a polished profile, but you can create a portfolio, right?
You can be on places like Instagram, wherever gives you energy to, and that shows your personality beyond a piece of paper, right? I think that is so important. And then secondly, in the spirit of AI, adopting AI tools in your workflow to make your life easier. I mentioned about this a little bit earlier, for example, meeting notes, right?
PMs are great note takers, right? Action items. But there are tools like that can make our lives easier. And so that's one thing. And even things like presentation building or deck building has been a historical sore for I'm sure many of us. But there are tools like that as well, so you can overlay that on top of prompting right on top of using different prompts and engineering that.
But yes, open up your world. Last but not least, investing in the soft skills, I would say, particularly your strategic thinking and communication. And what my managers have coached me on is, your ability to think 5 to 10 steps ahead, I used to like 3 to 5 steps ahead, but that's really stretched me as well.
Change management, right? How do you make change stick? Not only for the launch, but for 6 months after launch, a year after launch. And be in the rooms with leaders, because that's going to help you a lot in understanding how leaders make decisions, what they care about, what questions that they might have.
Galen Low: Love that. And yeah, I think, in some of my conversations too, right? There's so much going on in AI right now, not just ChatGPT, not just, what's it called, Gemini now? I'm Canadian. I'm so far behind.
Jean Kang: I think it's Gemini, Bard, I think it used to be called Bard before.
Galen Low: Bard is what I'm like on the waiting list for as a Canadian. And then they're like, by the way, it's not called that anymore. I'm like, that's great. I haven't had a chance to use it yet. But no, I love that. I mean, Jean, maybe your next LinkedIn learning course, huh? Soft skills, looking into the future, 10 steps ahead. Playing chess as a project manager. I love that because, I mean, listen, I'll say it again.
The large language models, they know what's there now. They don't know what's going to be there in the future yet. But, that's a strong play. And you all have been doing a great job of building your brands. That should be the next panel or course that we do all together. But thank you again for, you all are sharing so much knowledge here today, but like on the daily, on a regular basis, and that takes effort. And I think that should be applauded as well.
All right, quick transition with the six minutes we have left. There's a couple of questions in the chat that I'm going to try and extract and field. And when I say that, I mean, Michael has already done it for me. There was actually a really good question in here.
The question is, I'll just read it out. Can you talk about how to get a project management internship? As someone with foundational certifications, what can I do differently to get an internship?
And I see this question so much because in some ways it's hard these days to get that experience. And I see fewer internships around. I see fewer organizations with a formal internship program. So they're always a little like hesitant to like, be like, Oh yeah, it sounds good on paper, but who's going to manage all this?
What tips do you all have in terms of getting a project management internship these days?
Mukhtar Kadiri: Yeah, because the project management role is not usually considered entry level, right? So that's the puzzle. One option could be, maybe looking for more entry level roles, maybe like project coordinator, project assistant type roles.
And then looking for something maybe temporary because, you have some of these contract roles, maybe with an agency recruiter. So that could be an option. I don't know if I've come across a project management internship role, because it's usually considered a more senior role, but I'd love to hear what others have to say.
Ordonna Sargeant: So I ran to LinkedIn because I feel like I just sold one. So there are programs like, so Google has one, and I know that's a little difficult to get into, but however, there are programs where you can apply for an internship. And I was looking for them that were live and the one that I just saw in my network.
But I do, because I've used it and it works for me, I do suggest people follow specific hashtags. Like I have, I'm looking at my hashtags on LinkedIn, I have a list. I follow ChatGPT, Project Manager, IT Project Manager, Call for Speakers, #DataGovernance. I would put in Project Management Internship or just Internship and see what comes out.
I would follow Hiring. These are just different lists of different things that you can use. TikTok's a scary place. However, there are things on TikTok that I think are helpful. So, it is important that you are branching out and casting a wide net with regard to where the internships are. Also, it's really important that you look around specific timing.
So, if you're looking for a summer internship, because that's oftentimes they're looking for internships for individuals who are coming from college. Look in the March to that early, you're looking as early as the February, March timeframe through April and May for internship posting. So they have postings where you apply for them, et cetera.
And those are also on LinkedIn as well.
Galen Low: Love that. Thank you for your hashtag list. I was going to say, I'm like, man, that is, we can publish that as a little book and sell it. Y'all just got it for free. That's amazing. That's amazing. Thank you for that.
And then Jean, what do you have any thoughts on internships getting in there?
Jean Kang: Yeah, I think the two here they hit on this really well. I agree with what Mukhtar said. I personally have not seen many internship roles, but I just did a quick Google search and I'm noticing that a few are popping up on places like ZipRecruiter, Indeed, and I'm sure with those hash, or the keywords, you can find some on LinkedIn as well, and definitely a pro tip to use the #Hiring.
And so you can see who's hiring, adding a plug about that so you can reach out to them directly. Super underrated. Another thing that I've seen people do to get into this field are considering rotational programs. I know the big companies like Google or Meta or Amazon, they do something like that.
Doesn't mean you can't shoot your shot.
Ordonna Sargeant: Can I just add, try Googling Handshake. So, I think Handshake also has some of the project management internships, but look at that.
Galen Low: That's cool. Okay, I got some tips there too. Thank you.
And actually, Mukhtar, it reminded me of what you said earlier, right? It's sometimes people come to me and they're like, I'm looking for an internship. I'm like, okay, well, where are you at? And they're like, I've been doing this and this. And they've been doing project management. I'm like, just go for the job, maybe, right? If it's a thing, right? Jean, to your point, maybe shoot your shot. Like some of the roles are going to be stuff that you can get into.
You don't always have to look for an internship and apparently internships are back. They're back, baby. They are out there. I love that.
A big thank you to our panelists. Thank you for volunteering your time today - Jean, Ordonna, Mukhtar. This was so much fun. Thank you so much for sharing your expertise.
As always, if you'd like to join the conversation with over a thousand like-minded project management champions, come join our collective. Head over to thedigitalprojectmanager.com/membership to learn more. And if you like what you heard today, please subscribe and stay in touch on thedigitalprojectmanager.com. Until next time, thanks for listening.