In today’s fast-paced, ever-evolving digital world, agencies are increasingly relying on the flexibility and expertise of contract project managers to navigate complex projects efficiently.
Galen Low is joined by Marissa Taffer—Founder of M. Taffer Consulting—to dive deep into the intricacies of hiring and maximizing the value of contract project managers.
Interview Highlights
- Benefits of Hiring Contract PMs [01:40]
- Agencies resist hiring contract PMs because they fear a lack of scalability or not having the right fit for their needs.
- Benefits of contract PMs for agencies:
- Handle overflow work or projects with high potential but limited resources.
- Help smaller agencies free up owner time for growth & strategy by taking over PM tasks.
- Assist in shaping a PM role & defining its needs before a full-time hire.
For smaller agency owners, one of the great things about Contract PM is that it can help you shape a role.
Marissa Taffer
- Marissa’s Journey to Consultancy [05:15]
- Marissa transitioned from sales to project management after working at a startup.
- An unexpected layoff led her to re-evaluate her career path.
- With encouragement from a mentor, she started freelancing and eventually focused on project management consulting.
- Her experience in both project management and content creation allows her to better understand the needs of creative teams.
- Marissa disagrees with the term “hired gun” to describe freelancers.
- She argues that a successful freelancer relationship is symbiotic, meaning both parties benefit.
- Her experience managing an account for the same agency for five years exemplifies this point.
- Her goal is to help her clients grow and win.
- Key Characteristics of a Healthy Agency-Contractor Relationship [10:09]
- Marissa considers interesting work as a top characteristic for a healthy relationship between an agency and a contract project manager.
- She enjoys a broad range of clients and projects.
- Clearly defined roles are another important characteristic. She prefers strategic partnerships over “hired gun” roles.
- Both the agency and the freelancer need to understand each other’s expectations.
- Project clarity, variety of work, and expectations are important for a healthy freelancer-agency relationship.
- These characteristics may need adjustments over time in a long-term relationship.
For freelancers, know yourself and what you like. You’ll have a much happier and easier time getting up for work in the morning when you say yes to the things that light you up.
Marissa Taffer
- Budget Expectations and Pricing [13:52]
- Agencies need to consider the budget and align it with the freelancer’s experience level.
- Higher rates usually correspond with more experience and skills.
- Finding a good freelancer isn’t just about price. Platforms like Upwork with a “sort by price” function might not be the best for quality.
- Agencies can assess potential freelancers by:
- Asking for recommendations.
- Requesting to speak with the freelancer’s past clients as references.
- Checking for transparency and a willingness to connect with references.
- Both freelancer and agency should ensure a good fit beyond just qualifications. A trial project can help assess compatibility.
- Knowing what you want from a freelancer is crucial for an agency to ask the right questions during the reference check.
- While recommendations are helpful, verification is needed to avoid potential bias (e.g., friend or family).
- Contract Clauses and Negotiations [19:04]
- Two clauses that freelancers may find problematic in contracts with agencies:
- Guaranteed hours: This clause can be inflexible and make it difficult for freelancers to manage their workload and income.
- No cancellation notice for meetings: This can disrupt the freelancer’s schedule and make it hard to plan their day.
- Marissa suggests alternative solutions:
- A “ceiling” and “floor” number of hours per week: This provides more flexibility while ensuring both parties have a general idea of the time commitment.
- Estimating total project hours and then dividing by the number of weeks: This allows for fluctuations but guarantees a minimum payment for the freelancer.
- A 48-hour cancellation policy for meetings: This protects the freelancer’s time while offering some leeway for emergencies.
- Two clauses that freelancers may find problematic in contracts with agencies:
- Understanding Client Pushback [25:37]
- Freelancers may face pushback on contract clauses because some agencies lack understanding of how freelance work functions.
- An example is an agency expecting to block out specific work hours on the freelancer’s schedule.
- Marissa views contracts as a safety net, similar to a prenuptial agreement, meant for worst-case scenarios, not everyday situations.
- Occasional rescheduling is normal, but consistent issues would warrant a conversation.
- Non-Compete Clauses and Confidentiality [28:23]
- Complex contracts with unfamiliar legal terms can be intimidating for freelancers.
- A good client-freelancer relationship should be built on trust, clear communication, and avoiding unnecessary restrictions.
- Freelancers may be hesitant to sign non-compete clauses that limit their ability to work with other clients.
- A strong non-disclosure agreement (NDA) is more valuable than a non-compete clause for protecting confidential information.
- Onboarding and Integrating a Contract PM [34:01]
- Key points for agencies include:
- Providing an overview of their tools and processes to the freelance PM.
- Offering a brief walkthrough of their specific setup within these tools.
- Highlighting any team members’ strengths, weaknesses, or areas requiring extra attention.
- The onboarding process may be more involved for all-contractor teams, where the agency might need to:
- Understand the rationale behind the selection of each freelancer.
- Assess their experience, particularly in agency settings.
- The freelance PM’s role includes:
- Identifying potential risks and proactively communicating them to the agency.
- Avoiding unnecessary busywork during onboarding, focusing on relevant project information.
- The freelance PM should be aware of what the agency “sold” to the client and strive to deliver on those expectations.
- While the focus is on project management, the freelance PM might identify additional business opportunities for the agency and communicate them to the account manager.
- Key points for agencies include:
- Effective Communication and Role Clarity [41:46]
- Agencies misuse titles like “senior developer” without clear definitions of responsibilities. This creates confusion about who makes decisions (PM vs senior team members).
- Senior team members (like developers) involve the project manager (PM) in decisions the PM shouldn’t need to make (e.g., which wireframe to use).
- The PM is unsure of their role on the project. Are they expected to be a hands-on manager or oversee a high-level plan?
- The PM should have open communication with the agency to understand expectations and avoid duplication of effort.
- The PM should involve senior team members in discussions when expertise is needed, but decision-making should follow clear roles.
- PMs should be vocal and contribute to discussions, not passive.
- Open communication allows PMs to identify issues and opportunities for improvement sooner.
- The goal is to find solutions together, not win arguments. PMs bring their expertise to the table, but should be open to alternative viewpoints.
- Finding the Right Contract Project Manager [45:06]
- Start with your network: Ask for referrals from colleagues or friends in the industry.
- Look for recommendations: A good sign is if a freelancer has a network of satisfied clients who refer them to others.
- Use online platforms: Look for freelancers on LinkedIn or other professional platforms. Read their profiles and see if their approach resonates with you.
- Discovery calls: Schedule a free consultation call to discuss your needs and see if there’s a good fit.
Meet Our Guest
Marissa Taffer, PMP, A-CSM is the founder and president of M. Taffer Consulting. In her consulting practice, she helps organizations with project management processes and tools. She also serves as a fractional project manager supporting digital agencies, marketing departments, and other consultancies.

You don’t always need high-end expertise; sometimes, you just need someone who can get the job done. You need someone who can come in and provide support similar to a project coordinator, helping set up project plans and ensuring everything moves smoothly. If that’s what you need, that’s what you should hire.
Marissa Taffer
Resources From This Episode:
- Join DPM Membership
- Subscribe to the newsletter to get our latest articles and podcasts
- Connect with Marissa on LinkedIn
- Check out M. Taffer Consulting
Related Articles And Podcasts:
Read The Transcript:
We’re trying out transcribing our podcasts using a software program. Please forgive any typos as the bot isn’t correct 100% of the time.
Galen Low: Hey folks, thanks for tuning in. My name is Galen Low with the Digital Project Manager. We are a community of digital professionals on a mission to help each other get skilled, get confident, and get connected so that we can amplify the value of project management in a digital world. If you want to hear more about that, head on over to thedigitalprojectmanager.com/membership.
Ok, today we're talking about contract project managers and how agencies can get the most out of contractor relationships without making sacrifices in terms of visibility, control, and culture, and also without sending the wrong message to their staff. Joining me today is Marissa Taffer, founder of M. Taffer Consulting.
Marissa, thank you for joining me today.
Marissa Taffer: Thanks for having me. I'm super excited to talk about this.
Galen Low: We were talking in the green room just about how this is becoming more of a thing. I mean, contract project managers have existed, probably since the dawn of time.
A lot of agencies have been using contractor and contract project managers, consultants, freelancers, et cetera. And in today's economy, what we're noticing in our community is this been a bit more 'oomph' around contractors, right? I think people's expectations of work are a little bit different. I think there's more options available to people in terms of employment.
And you are the expert here in terms of how that happens and how that happens well. And the reason why I wanted to dig in today and have you on the show was because I've just seen it go wrong so many times. And I know that some people are resistant to it. And I know that it can go sideways. But I've also seen it go really right, and what I wanted to do today is just really zero in on what makes those things go right, because when it goes right, it goes really right, and it could be amazing.
Alright, I just wanted to get into one hot question right off the bat, which is, for agencies out there that are resistant to bringing on a contractor or freelance PM, what are they missing out on? Like, why should an agency choose to work with a contractor project manager?
Marissa Taffer: Yeah, I think one of the things that if you're really resistant to it, you might miss out on as an agency owner or operator is that scalability.
So sometimes you have that piece of business come in and you're like, Oh, my project managers are overloaded, really want to take this on, whether it's because it's, the logo that you want for a case study, the really interesting work that your team has been clamoring to do. Something that's going to help your business grow and you're just maxed.
And I mean, even as a contractor, it happens to me occasionally, that great piece of business comes in and the timing is just Oh boy. So bringing in somebody on a contract basis who is skilled, experienced, and a good fit could really help you take that piece of business for whatever that reason is.
For my smaller agency owners, one of the things that's really great about Contract PM is that it can help you shape a role. So if you are a really small agency owner, maybe you've got 3 or 4 people, maybe they're even contractors supporting you, and you are doing all of the PM, you're still doing all of the business development, you're doing all the PM, you're doing R&D on your services, trying to continue to improve and grow and strategize.
But then you've also got the day to day grind of PM, bringing in a contractor on a part time basis who can help wrestle that away from you, start to build out some operating prestigers, start to help you shape that role, is a) going to give you that time back in the short term to continue to grow your business.
And b) it's also going to help you shape that hire. So when you're ready for someone full time, that contract resource who's been doing it is a really valuable asset to help you write the job description right and get the right person in the door when you are looking for full time. I've done this for a couple of agencies. Personally where I've come in, worked with the founder, CEO, whatever you want to call it, we've really set up their systems.
We've dialed in their processes. And then we said, okay, you've been doing all this business development, we've now onboarded six clients in a month. You need somebody really to come in and help you run this day to day because as they're doing that, you're going to be able, that 6 is, going to be 8 or 12 or whatever in the future.
So let's get somebody in and on boarded before it gets too crazy, so that you can keep growing smoothly and sustainably. So I think there's some really, really good reasons to consider contract project managers, whether it's a fractional head of projects or a freelance project manager, just to set the scene.
Contract PM can mean a range of things, which is why we want to zero in on like, how do we make this go right? Because you really need to define what is that contract resource before you even start to look for that.
Galen Low: Yeah, I was gonna say, I love that idea of role shaping without the full commitment of having a full time hire right off the bat.
I've seen a lot of micro agencies recently, they're like two or three people, they're out there pounding pavement, selling the work, and they know that they're gonna hit, this sort of capacity. And I've got to bring on folks and shape their team on the fly. I mean, I also know a lot of like owner operator, sort of entrepreneur types that they were the first project manager as the founders, and they need to be able to hand that off, but they're not at that scale yet where they can hire somebody and have someone on payroll.
I do love that. And then that all ties back into that whole notion of okay, but you know, you can't take someone who's just expecting to come in and run a project and be like, Oh, surprise. You're shaping a role for me. This is an experiment. We've got no process.
Marissa Taffer: Don't do that.
Galen Low: I like that sort of clarity up front.
I wonder if we could just rewind a bit because I'm imagining that you weren't always a consultant or a contract project manager. What was that path that led you to creating your own project management consultancy? And what ultimately made you pull a trigger to leave a nine to five job?
Marissa Taffer: Well, if you want me to be really honest, it was one of those kind of leap in the net will appear situation.
I spent about 10 years working in sales. After that, I took a role with a startup and went from a global Fortune 500 to a startup, which was a bit more of a culture shock than I think I was expecting it to be in some ways in a delightful way and other ways in a really challenging way. And after going through the roller coaster of startups and funding and all of that with them, I ended up pivoting to go work as a project manager for an agency.
And I had never been an agency project manager before and three weeks into my tenure at this agency, the owner bought two other agencies and now there were three agencies and one very inexperienced project manager and a lot of cooks in the kitchen. So we ended up parting ways since this is the DPM read, they let me go.
I started to get really introspective about, okay, well, now I've had this career path. I've had a couple roles that were really challenging and I wasn't sure where I wanted to go. So a friend, coach, mentor, client, she's been all the things to me all at once, was like, you should start your own thing.
And I was like, absolutely not. I can't do that. I can't run a business. Are you out of your mind? And then she was like, here's a client. Try it. And I went, okay. So I actually started selling kind of fractional sales type services and kept getting pulled back into project management. And also I do some freelance content creation.
You'll see my byline on the DPM for any of our listeners who want to read some of my work. So over the course of, it'll be six years in October, I have grown to mostly specialize in project management as a freelancer or consultant. I help people like we talked a little bit about in the hot question.
I help people shape that role. Sometimes I help people document or set up processes and pick and set up tools. And then, like I said, I do some writing mostly in the project management and B2B space. And I think that part is actually really important because when I come in to manage websites and projects that have a lot of creative resources, I feel like at least because I sit on both sides of the table, it gives me just a better understanding and it makes me a better project manager. And I get that feedback from clients and from project teams that I manage pretty consistently. So when people are like, why do you do both? Here's why.
Galen Low: It's interesting because in some ways the bar is higher and in some ways the bar is lower for bringing on like a contract project manager. On the one hand, you might be like looking for the least expensive person to just get the job done, keep the train on the track and then, after that, back to business as usual.
And then I'd also imagine that they're like, okay, well, if I'm going to bring someone in externally who doesn't really, know my business, but also won't be invested full time necessarily, I maybe do want someone who's really well rounded, right? Like that kind of like in my sort of, business brain, it resonates with me that, okay, here is someone who is a project manager, who stereotypically I'd be like, okay, yeah, organized, can probably, make a plan, execute a plan, deliver a thing, fine. And then, oh, also like content creation, that means like writing, communication, and then also sales, which means, they can be involved in the sales process.
They understand the sales pipeline, they understand, how a business runs and actually might have better insights than some project managers who've been doing the job for 5, 10 years but have never been asked to think about that that way, right? To think about the business, to think about other skills other than what they're great at managing projects.
And that's fine, but I like that value add of okay, well, what are the other skills that we can pile on top to make a project manager really valuable? And especially in a contract situation, because we use the word hired gun. Now it's like hired guns, right? Get better bang for the buck.
Marissa Taffer: And I think it also depends on the nature of the contract type.
I have an agency that I've worked with for five years. I have managed an account for them for five years, same account. Pretty much the same team, but we've continued to grow that relationship, grow that account, grow within that agency. So I think there is a little bit of misnomer about what hired gun means because it is a symbiotic relationship.
So like when the agency grows and wins, so do I. And that's what I want for my clients. I want you to grow. I want you to win. And I'm here to help you do that.
Galen Low: I think that's interesting. The sort of longer term thinking is sometimes not always the sort of first port of call. I know it wasn't for me, but you know, I guess I relies on a healthy relationship, right? And like you said, it's symbiotic. Maybe let's just get into it.
What are your top three characteristics of a healthy relationship between an agency and a contract project manager?
Marissa Taffer: Sure. Oh, top three. So first of all, I think it's that the work is interesting. And when I see that, as a contract project manager, we talked about this a little bit when we were prepping, I have choices about where I can go.
So I want to be places where the work is really interesting. And how I define that is really, really broad. I've done work for a dog food company. I've worked for an agency that specializes in agricultural technology. And it's been one of the coolest career highlights that I've had. And if you had told me, back when I was working in corporate America, that these are the things I'd be doing, I probably would have laughed in your face.
I've done a project for a quick service restaurant, a sports nutrition company. Some really, really big universities whose names you might know, just really, really incredible breadth of clients. So I would say when I'm talking to somebody about, a new relationship or a new project, my first question to myself is like, is this something I want to wake up in the morning and go do?
And like I said, that can be a very broad range of things. The second thing is, are the roles clearly defined? So like we're talking about in the one hot question, do you need a hired gun who's going to come in and check things off of a list? Or do you need a partner who's going to come in and help you really manage this project and really support a team or do some kind of strategizing?
Do you need the hired gun or do you need that bigger, more strategic relationship? And I lean more towards those bigger, more strategic relationships. That doesn't mean the hired gun stuff is always out of the question. But you know, at the end of the day, I mean, for the freelancers listening, know yourself, know what you like, you're going to have a much, much happier time and a much easier time getting up for work in the morning when you're saying yes to those things that light you up.
And then like really, even once you get there, defining those roles, which I think is where I was going with this is making sure you know what is expected of you. For example, I talked to an agency owner a couple months ago, they were like super, super jazzed about the fact that I have writing experience, but I'm a project manager and they had all this work for me.
I got in, I started onboarding. And the first two weeks I was there, I'm going, Oh God, the things that they are having me do, they could hire an intern. You know me, I shoot straight. I said, I find a very softer way to say it to them. But I was like, listen, if this is what you need, you don't need me. You need an intern.
I think sometimes there needs to be that little bit of, like when you're in that kind of conversation, it didn't sound like I needed to in this case, but maybe I should have dug a little deeper to make sure that I really understood what they were looking for before jumping all in.
Galen Low: I like that you started with just, cool projects because I think the thing that some folks don't realize, especially about project managers, is that we love this, especially agency project managers, I should say.
We love the variety, like the variety is part of the reason why we continue on this path. And it actually, when I think about it, we were talking about this in the green room a bit some of the best professionals I know, and some of the best project managers I know are freelancers, are contractors, are, business owners running their own consultancy. They're not out there because they weren't good enough to hack it, at a nine to five, and they weren't out there because they couldn't work within an agency environment.
In some cases, they're just going after the cooler work, because they can choose a little bit more, and then to your point they can shoot straight and be like, actually, you know what, that project sounds boring. Versus, working in a in-house team or, at an agency. I didn't get to choose.
I got lucky, but I didn't get to choose my projects. Whatever came across my plate is what I was doing. And there was variety, but I didn't have that choice. So I love that variety of projects is a thing. Cool projects.
And man, yeah, that role clarity. Let's I want to dig into that too because, I think sometimes it, yeah, like you said, it starts a certain way and you know it's not going to work. That's easy, right? You can be like, okay, this isn't going to work. You're asking me to do work that's, far beneath me. You're wasting your money. I'm wasting my time. Let's just call a spade, a spade. But I was thinking about these characteristics and, they are core, but what if they start going away in a longer term relationship?
Because you just mentioned that, yeah, maybe not hired gun one project and then you're out. It's a longer term relationship, but like those three things might not always stay the same, the sort of variety, the role clarity and just the expectations.
Marissa Taffer: Yeah. The other thing that we started chatting about in the green room, and I think I wanted to touch on in this part of what we're talking about is also as an agency owner, making sure that like your budget expectation and what you're looking for are aligned.
There are contract project managers who charge, and I'm speaking in U.S. dollars, 30 to 50. There are folks that are in higher ranges. And there's a difference in skill set. There's a difference in training. There's a difference in experience. I will say, generally speaking, as with anything else, you get what you pay for.
That said, you don't always need the higher end, sometimes you just need somebody who can get it done. You just need the basics. You don't need a lot of experience. You need somebody who can come in and provide that almost like a project coordinator type support with helping set up project plans and, helping to make sure everything's moving through the boxes.
It's really just important to understand that if that's what you need, that's what you should hire and vice versa. If you're hiring somebody on the lower end of experience range, you're not going to get the same experience that you're going to get when you hire, a $200 an hour consultant, and that's okay.
Galen Low: I think that's fair.
I think there's a lot of you think about something like Upwork, right, on these marketplaces, right, Mechanical Turk, and things like that, where, it is a great microcosm, macrocosm? Anyways, microcosm of a marketplace where, you see the buyers that are like sort by price low to high.
You know what I mean? Right? They're like, give me the cheapest person to do whatever, a bit of design, a bit of writing, or what have you. And I'm sure there are also, buyers out there who are going to be like, okay, yeah, actually the other way. And I might take some cream off the top, but I'm looking for that person in that van.
But I don't know if there's that much education around how to then determine if that person who's charging $300 an hour is actually worth $300 an hour. How does an agency go out and search for that without thinking, Oh, actually, this kind of looks like yeah, maybe they just change their price from 50 to 300 overnight just to try it.
Marissa Taffer: Yeah, I think it's around in that kind of discovery process, asking really good questions. If you know that you're somebody who's newer to hiring in this way, maybe get a couple of recommendations. Talk to some people who have worked with other contractor freelance project managers. I know I almost always offer this if somebody's talking to me and they're not feeling sure.
I can spout out whatever I want, but I'm going to let you go talk to my clients. And if somebody's not willing to do that, that might be a little like red flag of I can't talk to their clients. Maybe the recommendations or the website looks a little too polished compared to, what you're telling me face to face.
There's a range, there's a fit for everybody. But I think that having that level of transparency and where I've said to folks not in so many words, but if you don't believe me I will ask a client to be a reference. Talk to them about what it's like to work with me. They'll tell you how responsive I am.
They'll tell you how proactive we are. They'll tell you how we've grown the relationship if we have. They'll tell you what's worked. They'll tell you maybe what hasn't so that you know what you're signing up for. And then you can decide, at the end of, especially if it's a shorter project and we try working together, in a smaller way before the bigger way. If you sit down at the end of the day and you're like, Oh, it's really hard to get ahold of her.
And I really don't like her style and I don't like working with her, maybe like worth it is relative. I have clients that call me time and time again. So I know I must be doing something right. Imposter syndrome be damned. But I think that's how you decide if it's worth it or not. And I actually had this conversation with a client the other day about a client that we both mutually knew and it wasn't working out for one reason.
It was like, they are a fantastic agency. I think I'm a very good freelancer. We are not good together. Totally fine.
Galen Low: No, it's absolutely fair. And when it comes back to that whole knowing what you want to get out of it in the first place as an agency owner, as a, team leader, as an operator, to be able to even ask the right questions of a reference and, therein lies your answer a lot of the times, even if you're on the call, like me as a skeptic going, this could be your second cousin that you've paid to say good things. I'm like, I don't know.
Marissa Taffer: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think you want to do your homework and kind of look into that and make sure that I'm not telling you to call my mom, though I don't know that my mom fully understands what I do.
So that might not be a call but you know, we could do a whole separate podcast on what questions should you be asking? How should you be framing it, like a discovery process? What kind of things should you look for depending on what kind of project manager you need? I feel like we could talk about that for a whole other day.
Galen Low: No, fair enough. Fair enough. Actually, that's a great idea. Part two, you heard it right here. It's coming soon.
Let's talk a bit about that sort of getting going process because there is, right? Some people listening are like, yeah, see, that already sounds like I have to do more interviews and do more work. I was expecting that, if it was going to be someone on contract, it should just be as easy as reading said contract and get in there and go.
But actually it is, as much of an investment and it could be as much of a return as a full time employee, if you're playing your cards right. But then you get through that process, you've talked to references, and you're like, okay, actually, this person sounds great. And then it comes down to the paperwork, the contract.
I've been in enough contract negotiations to just know that it's it can get messy. It's whose paper is it on? So reading through all these clauses, trying to understand whether or not it actually maps to, the way I run my business. And do I understand all the clauses the same way you understand them?
And I thought maybe, just like there's always that clause. I'm just wondering, what is a clause that you've seen clients insist on shows a bit of a lack of understanding or that really like handcuffs your ability to deliver value?
Marissa Taffer: Yeah, so I came in guns blazing about one and now I feel like I have two that I'm like, Oh, these are the ones that always just really are the sticking points.
So the first one that I really, really hate to see and I'm at the point where I won't sign it anymore because I've gotten burned. I've been running my business almost six years and in the last quarter, I've been burned by this twice. In one case, I feel like it was a little bit the client's, I hate to say, fault, but I feel like it was a little bit their fault.
In the other case, not as much. And also like the way that it was handled was very different by both agencies. So one, I would like, if the work comes back, I would go back to in a heartbeat. The other one, we would have to tear up the contract and totally start over. So what that clause is, not to have put the cart before the horse, but the clause is around guaranteed hours.
So I know there's a lot of talk about pricing strategy and trying not to trade time for money. Unfortunately, when you're talking about things like running a project and sitting in meetings, like those are hours. I need to account for them on my calendar somehow. I cannot cram too many into one day.
So if I'm signing a contract with you, I need to know about how many hours a week you need me to run the project. And I know that projects are going to ebb and flow week to week and that's okay and normal and it should so I want it to be flexible enough that we can do that and it's not going to drive you crazy as the agency or me crazy as the project manager. But at the end of the day, you need to know how much money you need to budget for me and I need to know how much money I'm going to get paid.
So there's no guaranteed hours means I don't know how much time to hold for you. I don't know how much you're going to pay me. I don't know if I should be saying yes or no to other things. So what I ask for now is the ceiling and the floor. So what we do in my contracts is, let's say you're coming to me saying, Hey, I have this project.
I think it's going to be 15 hours a week of your time. We've agreed to a rate. I'm going to ask you for a contract that is between 5 and 15 hours a week. So, if we're dropping below 5 I'm sorry, you still have to pay me, but if you're really telling me you need 15 hours a week, that should never be happening.
I mean, granted we make exceptions for weeks like Christmas week when it's closed. I do not expect you to pay me for a week when we're all closed and not working. But if you're, contracting my time, I need to be able to have some kind of understanding of what that's going to look like. So if we're consistently not hitting five, that's a conversation.
And then the reason, if you're saying 15, maybe one week, it's actually 20 because that's our launch week or whatever. We just have a simple process in place where I put something in writing like, Hey, client, I'm actually going to need 20 hours this week. Is that okay? And sometimes it's come out in the wash because maybe I did, 10 hours this week and 12 hours that week.
So there's a little bit of banked up hours in the total. And we just say, okay, and move on. I never want to surprise my clients with a bill. Based on our contract and based on what I've told you, before you get my invoice, you should know what that invoice, you may not remember exactly to the penny, but you should never be surprised by an invoice for me.
I think that's, I just think it's rude. I think it's a bad business practice. This is my personal philosophy on communication and billing. The other way we could go about doing that so that like we don't have to necessarily do guaranteed hours per week is looking at the statement of work and looking at the estimate, even if you don't provide that estimate to the client and saying, in this project, we think we need 300 hours of project management over however many months.
I can figure out what that might look like on a weekly basis, even though some weeks it might be zero and some weeks it might be, double the average. That also would work for me, as long as you're agreeing that you're going to pay out at least that number. It keeps you knowing what you need to pay for the resource, it keeps me knowing, what I should and shouldn't be doing.
It's almost like Tetris, I want to maximize my time as much as possible. I have a clause in some of my contracts to this end. I almost never enforce it unless it's becoming a problem. And that is if you schedule a meeting with me, and you don't cancel it 48 hours before the meeting, I will charge you for the time.
Because it's hard for me to juggle my schedule around that. I also put in that it is way that charges waived at the consultant's discretion. So if you wake up and your child is sick or something like that happens, and it's a one off, I wouldn't charge someone for that. However, I also had a client who, it was a client of my client.
And on the regular 5 or 10 minutes before a meeting, I would get a message. Hey, can we move this back an hour? Hey, I'm like, how do you manage a schedule this way? Because I cannot.
Galen Low: This is why they needed a project manager.
Marissa Taffer: So this is why the clause exists. Like I said, and I tell clients like, this is not for the one off.
Your kid got sick. This is for the people that are going to do this to me. I'm in time again. And generally those are the clients that after a couple of these, we have to have another more serious conversation about if and how we continue to work together. So those are clauses that to me, I think sometimes I get a lot of pushback on those because people don't understand until they've been on this side of the table.
And they're like, Oh, yeah, that's why she does that.
Galen Low: I mean, talk me through that because like I think in my head, the first bit of it when you're talking about, yeah, I need to plan my work and I'm like, yeah, that makes sense. This is your livelihood, right? And I think there's a level of empathy that should happen in any partnership where it's okay, yes, I know I'm not your only client.
I know that, if I'm booking 20 hours of your week instead of 15, that means it's five coming from your other client, and it could be potentially, something that I'm going to say I'm not paying for, which is going to impact your livelihood. So even just that mutual respect of, okay, yeah, you are earning a living and we are running a business.
You know, it's not the same as some of the other things that I think is where the pushback comes from, which is your dentist, right? I used to go to a dentist that was, pretty it had that sort of high end feel. It wasn't by choice, it was just nearby. And you definitely got that vibe that was like, yeah, no shows are a hundred bucks or whatever.
And you're like, I get that I should pay a fee because I didn't show up. I think that makes business sense to me. But then there's this whole sort of paying money for nothing, right? So like minimum five hours and if you don't use, well, if I'm not using five hours and I'm gonna be, throwing money into a black hole, which, good luck not using five hours of a project manager's time during a project.
Right? This is the other thing. The other one is just that sort of policing feeling, right? Not policing as in like law enforcement, but policing as in someone's like laying down the law with you to be like, Yes, and if you do something wrong, I'm going to slap your hand and it's gonna hurt.
And I think sometimes people just don't like to hear that. Is that kind of where some of the pushback is or where is the pushback?
Marissa Taffer: I think it's a little bit of exactly what you're saying. I think it's just sometimes comes from a like lack of understanding of how it all works. And I know we had talked about talking a little bit about this later, but I'm going to bring it up now.
I had a client once ask me, they'd never worked with a contract PM and they said, so how does this work? Do you like block out time on your schedule? Like you work for us on Monday, Wednesday, and Friday from 12 to 2 or whatever. And I was like, first of all, no, that's veering into illegal territory.
If my contract is going to tell me when and where I have to work, that is an employment contract, not a like freelance 1099 independent contractor contract. So I talked them through how I do my scheduling. And there was this like aha moment of, Oh, that actually makes a lot of sense. I hadn't thought about it like that.
So I think that's where it comes from I've never really felt like it comes from malice. And when it comes to the policing stuff, I consider the contract, like the worst case scenario stuff. It's a prenup. It's if something is going wrong, this is what we agreed to when things were good.
It's not meant to be punitive I have this clause in my contract, I think I've enforced it once, and it was because it was like massive problem behavior. It's not there for the everyday life happening stuff that we know is going to happen, especially over a three to six month project. A meeting is going to get pushed.
Somebody is going to ask if they can reschedule. That is not a big deal. My issue would come in when it's consistent and sustained. But I also don't have a magic number of, well, it could happen three times and I won't get mad. But on the full time, now I'm like up to here. So, it's just there for protection.
If things are going sideways, we need to know what to do, and we want to have that agreement in place before that ever happens. And in the almost six years I've been running this business, I've had to really hammer on the contract very little.
Galen Low: Okay, that's good, because, like, when you talk me through it, I'm like, oh yeah, that makes sense. And then I remember, right, that the scariest, most severe language of a relationship, of a business relationship, well, or to your point, to a non-business relationship, is gonna be in that contract, and it is a worst case scenario, and it is to protect either party if the worst should happen, but the intention should, at that point, hint still be to make things go well.
And if it's not, then that's probably a good sign that you might not be ready to bring on someone on contract because you're not at that level of trusting it enough that you will let it actually happen. You had mentioned earlier in the green room about, it's like clients who sort of micromanage or kind of breathing down your neck or, to your point, trying to like, see if they can dictate your schedule to make it work for them.
And it's always coming from that place of because I don't really, a) know what I want, and b) trust that you know what I want because I don't, and are going to do the thing that I expect, which I can't articulate yet. And it all comes to a head there, but just to your point, like that whole education up front can go a long way because a contract can be a pretty scary thing.
Marissa Taffer: Yeah, absolutely. And the other one we were talking about in the green room that I did want to bring up is the one around a lot of like we were talking about, is it on your paper or my paper? When it's on other people's paper, there's usually some pretty scary language around like non-compete. I am a project management consultant specializing in working with, marketing departments and agencies.
If you want me to sign something that says I cannot work with other marketing departments or agencies, I will not sign that. And I think it's a bad clause for both sides. First of all, I do have a very strict non-disclosure. So again, I've talked about some examples here and there. I've never said anybody's name.
I've never dived into specifics. You cannot figure out who I'm talking about. I don't want you to be able to because of very strict non-disclosure. Unless I have something expressly from a client in writing, I will never tell anybody about what we did about your business, about anything, unless if you publicly shout out that we finished a project on LinkedIn and you want to do kudos like that, I think that's fabulous.
But I hold my non-disclosure very, very, very close to the best. However, I also have all of this vast experience, so I can give you better advice based on what I know. I am not here to run off with your clients. If that is the business model that I was building, I would not have a business. As long as I have, I would not have clients that call me for repeat contracts.
So I would say to agency owners, think about what you're really asking for here and what you're really asking for is that your contract resources are not running off with your clients. And that feels like a pretty reasonable ask. However, there are times where I offer several different services.
If I'm working with, an IT department in a really, really large company and the marketing department comes to me, they have no idea that I ever had a relationship with that. It can get a little dicey and we work through that the best way we can. There's no guarantees about where you might go.
And, there have been contractors who after some time have gone and worked for a client. And I think that's really great. I think it's also like we talked about a little bit before, it's a good way to try something on without going all in. And now, you like this business, you like this team, you like this group.
So I think as much as we can limit any of that, like non-competing stuff, we should. I know in the US they're starting to make non-competes illegal. But also as a contractor, I hold that non-disclosure very close. I also am not here to squirrel into your client roster and start running off with your clients.
It's not what I do. It's not what I want to do. It's not the business that we're building.
Galen Low: It's funny. Another thing you and I had talked about in a previous conversation is just this notion that, some of the laws don't understand your business model. And, you're seeing things like the FTC moving towards banning non-competes.
And as that has come up in conversation more, everyone I talked to was like, Yeah, we, we just assume it can't be enforced anyways. There's a lot of people just literally ignoring it, which is probably why they're moving to ban it because it's probably just one of those things that's, hey, yeah, maybe just not the right thing for today and also isn't enforceable anyways.
And it's just, causing grief, but you know, it comes back to this idea of like you as a consultant. Of course your value is the knowledge you bring to the table. And anyone who's hired a consultant before, anyone who's hired one of the big four to, work on their business, like that is what you're paying for.
No, they're not coming in and telling you how McDonald's makes a Big Mac sauce, but they are saying, yeah, we work with some of the big QSRs and they're doing this and, let's do something similar for you. Let's help you compete in the marketplace because we know how this is done.
We've seen it from more than one angle, and that is a value. And just to have some of these contracts where I imagine some of the clauses are actually brought in from, like you said, like from an employment contract, and it's just there without them understanding that your business model is different.
It is actually not the same as, it's probably in there because they're like, okay, well, what if we hire a professional and then, you know, they stay for three weeks and then quit. And then, take all of our secret sauce and take it to our competitor. Probably could happen, but not for someone like you.
You wouldn't do that. You'd be, like you said, you'd be out of business fast.
Marissa Taffer: Like I said, I'm happy to have prospects talk to my clients. People talk. If you have a reputation for doing those kinds of things, it's usually not a secret. And if it is, it's not staying secret very long. And I think there's this I don't know where this perception that this is what freelancers do came from.
But it's not what we do. Like I said at the beginning, I am here to help my clients win. I'm here to help you grow. I'm here to help you have a successful project. I am not here to be squirreling around in your business, trying to figure out how I can work with your clients, or how I can take your secret. It's not what I'm here to do. I'm here to help you.
Galen Low: For sure.
I wonder if we can play a little bit of contract PMO rama because, I think we spent a bit of time on the sort of upfront part and I think it's important because I think that's where a lot of the tension is. I think that's where a lot of the hesitation is.
I think that's where most of the misunderstanding is. But then, you get into the project and I just wonder if we could just go through a few stages of a project from your perspective of, what an agency client can do to support someone like yourself and get the most out of you at different stages.
Marissa Taffer: Yeah, so we've got the contract signed and we're ready to start onboarding. I was trying to explain this to somebody and I was using like date, we were using dating analogies and it felt a little crass, so I'm going to use some baking analogies now.
Your contract PM is your chocolate chip cookie mix. You've got to add a few things, but it's generally all there in the box. Your employee is your Nestle Toll House recipe that is on the back of the bag of chocolate chips. You have to bring all of these things together and mix them up to get where you need to go, which is the oven so that you can bake your cookies.
So as a contract PM coming in to run like one project for you, there's two flavors of this. In a bigger agency, I need to understand your tools and processes because I'm probably going to have to use them. Deviating from that is going to cause chaos for your reporting. It's going to cause chaos for your teams, and it's just all around going to be, like, bad.
So I need to know what tools you're using, which we've probably talked about in the discovery process, and I've told you if I've used them or not. And even if I do use the tool you use, I probably need an hour or less walkthrough of how you personally have set up and used your tool so that I can continue to mirror that.
If you have a Google Drive structure, if you have very strict folders and you need this set of notes on here and this set of notes on there, just give me the lay of the land. And then tell me how much of a troublemaker I can, like, how much can I deviate from this if I need to or want to? I generally don't, and I say this to clients and I would say it to their faces, I generally, if you have a good process in place and you want me to come in and run a project, I will very rarely deviate from your process unless it's completely broken.
And that usually comes up in the discovery process and half the time that's why I'm there anyway. As, like you said, as I've had a lot of experience working with a lot of agencies, I may have some suggestions for you on some things you could do to, be more efficient or be more thorough, or if I see a pain point, how you might fix it.
Sometimes it's also just reassuring to have a contract person come in and be like, yeah, I've been in 40 agencies or whatever in the last couple of years. Some flavor of this problem exists in every agency. You are not broken. You are not doing something wrong. Here's a couple things we can try, but just know that everybody deals with this in some form or fashion, and that's part of being an agency.
So, I really just need that quick rundown. Usually, I like to get a flavor of who's on the team and what I should be looking for - strengths, weaknesses, anything I should be watching out for to make sure the project is going to go really smoothly. This gets a little bit more challenging when it's an all contractor team.
So in that case, I might be like, okay, well, you looked at a bunch of people. Why did you pick him or her? What are their strengths? How are they, expected to contribute to the team? What is their experience? I just did a project that had a little bit of a bumpy start. It came out phenomenal, but it was an all contract team.
And both the UX freelancer and the development freelancer had never worked in an agency setting before, and I think one had not done software to this extent before. So there was a little bit more of an on ramp period with them, but really, really talented individuals, and because I knew what I was stepping into, it was a little bit easier to see around the corner.
And, part of a project manager's job is to help you spot risk. Even I show up to one of my clients traffic meetings all the time, I'm like, Here's all the things I'm worried about. And I always couch that in, here's all the things I'm worried about because you pay me to worry about them. This is my job.
I worry about them now so that they don't blow up in your face later. And then we deal with them and they don't blow up in anybody's face and the project continues to go. So these are the things that I need. I had a client recently basically rip their employee onboarding and hand it to me. And I'm going, I don't need this level of depth.
I don't need this level of, getting to know you chats with everybody. It's very, very sweet, but it's not where you should be spending your money.
Galen Low: I like your baking analogy, right? You're not starting with all the ingredients from scratch. You've got someone who's gonna, who's trained to get up to speed quickly, and has enough experience to just go, and trust in that. But they do need to know your process, they do need to know the people on the team, and things to be aware of.
Marissa Taffer: Yep. And then also all of the documents, just like you would with an in-house PM, when you have the sales to project transition type stuff, I'd want to know anything that came up in the business development process. I want to see the statement of work. I want to know what I'm on the hook for delivering any kind of internal notes or estimates that you feel comfortable sharing with me.
The more you tell me, the more helpful I can be. So if I know that in the business development process, the end client is really choosing this agency because of, you know, the UX person on the team or because they're really interested in how the team's process works. I don't want to deviate from a process that you've sold like that just sounds horrible, so.
Galen Low: That's your sales hat on, by the way, there's a lot of PMs who wouldn't think that they're like, what was sold through? Let me help you deliver that. I think it's very comforting for an agency owner operated a year.
Marissa Taffer: Yeah. So those are the things, and we didn't talk about this that much yet, but am I a PM? Am I doing the account management piece of it, or am I not? I operate a little bit differently, and I've had to say to account managers, because I have a sales background. I'm like, if I'm starting to veer into your territory especially since we're all on Zoom feel free to virtually kick me.
I don't want to stay out of my lane. But also, if I see something, I'm going to pull you aside and say something like, hey, they brought this up in a meeting. This could be another really cool project for the agency. I don't know, maybe you want to pitch or upsell or start a notes document for things that we might want to do in a phase two or a maintenance contract.
And I think there's a lot of value to that.
Galen Low: It's actually interesting. The sort of value add, we talked about like a stack of skills, but also the value add along the way as we've been talking is that, you in particular and other, contract PMs, freelancers, consultants, are going to be bringing that perspective and that boldness, I would say, to be like, I noticed this.
Do you want to act on it? This thing looks a little broken. You should do something about that. Do you want me to help? Right? And it's not always walking the halls to try and get more work. It's just that you have this perspective and you have the experience to be able to come in and say, I see opportunity here.
And yeah, I'll stay in my lane, but I wanted to not just shut up about it because, we've worked this world, right? You don't walk by an opportunity in the agency world. Yeah, everyone's trying to be dialed in to pick it up and run with it. And so you bring that as well to a team that sometimes, not every team has it, that ability to do that.
Marissa Taffer: Yeah. And I think sometimes as the like outside third party, there are things that people will say to me that they won't say to their boss. And there are things that I can go say to the boss that they can't. So I don't think that's something that we can discount because at the end of the day, it's really coming from a place of we all want to do great work.
We all want to thrive. We all want to grow. But sometimes that growth part can feel a little icky. And if you're an agency owner listening to this, I encourage you to sit with it for a minute, and it's okay to sit with it for a minute, and it's okay for it to feel icky. And then what you do about it is ultimately, like you said, it's ultimately up to them or to you as an agency owner, what you want to do with the information you're being given and how much of a priority it is.
You have a whole comprehensive business to run. And in some cases, I'm looking at it in a very myopic way with just one project. But a lot of times if there's something that's coming up, that's an issue on one project, it's an issue across the board.
Galen Low: Yeah, it's information they probably didn't have before.
Marissa Taffer: Yeah, exactly.
Galen Low: Talk to me about during the project, what are some of the things that you see agencies do that really just limit your ability to do your thing and limit your ability for this agency just get the most out of their working relationship with you?
Marissa Taffer: I really think it goes back to that role clarity piece.
There are times where agencies will use fancy titles for project team members like lead developer or senior consultant or, creative director, creative oversight. So it's like, what are the things that that lead resource should be pointing out from a strategic perspective? And what are the things that you're leaning on the PM for?
I use an example and I've talked through this a couple of times with a client where we did a project and they had a senior UX resource and a senior developer overseeing some more junior members of the team. And I kept getting hauled into meetings going, well, what wireframe should this person do?
Well, shouldn't you be telling me? Or what process should we be following? Well, shouldn't the lead developer be setting that and then telling me, and then I build out the overall schedule and make sure all the trains are running on the tracks. So it's like, where do you want me versus where do you want your senior team members?
And that was not an isolated one project thing. That's just an example. And it's something that happens a couple times. I have a colleague who I've worked with for a very long time, who is a more technical project manager. And there came a point where it was like, three or four months and I felt like I was basically just like double backing him.
And I finally was like, I'm out. And they were like, no, we don't want you to leave. I'm like, well, you are doing the same job I am doing over a sustained period. It doesn't feel like my services are really needed here anymore if he's got it. And he was like, no, no, that's not what I want. So, we had a conversation, we made it some changes.
And that got a whole lot better. And up until that point, we'd been working together great. So and it was really enlightening for me to be like, I see this one way, you see it a totally different way. And you're not seeing what I'm seeing. So I think that for me, that was a lesson in a little bit more benefit of the doubt and to like, continue to err on the side of overcommunication.
I'm coming into your house, basically, is what it is. I'm coming into your house as hired help. So I need to know how you like things done, how you want me to work. Is there a lane you want me to stay in? If you don't want me to stay in my lane, and you want me to come in and fully do the thing, I just need to understand where on the spectrum it falls.
And I am the kind of project manager who, if I don't know the answer to something, I will pull in the people who I think do and say, here's what I'm seeing. Here's the piece I think we haven't planned out well enough. I don't have the experience in UX, in dev, to really step through this. So help me talk through it.
Help me think through it. Help me think through the timing so that I can make sure it happens right or that I'm managing client expectations correctly.
Galen Low: I really like that it kind of hinges on this open line of communication. And even in, some of the other stuff we've talked about, expect that. If you're bringing on a contract project manager, I'm sure there's some that will just sit in a corner and be quiet, but it doesn't have to be.
Keep that line of communication open. You're going to get tapped into issues. You're going to get tapped into opportunities. You're going to be able to course correct better because sometimes, it's just somebody in your house who might not see it the same way as you do. And one of you may be right or wrong, or maybe it's just a matter of just understanding where each other are coming from.
Marissa Taffer: It's not always a hill I'm going to die on. I don't always have to be the one that's right because I'm the consultant. I am here to show you what I'm seeing, and we solution on that together.
Galen Low: Love that.
I'm going to end with just a question on the search, but also I'm going to give it a bit of an inflection because I think what I'm seeing in the marketplace is that there are more contract project managers out there.
There are a few more people starting consultancies, striking it on their own. And I would say that, it is this sort of, I dare say, post pandemic awakening to different ideas of what work can be, especially as a project manager, where you could be a consultant, you could be a freelancer, you could be a contractor.
But then now the marketplace is pretty big, right? You could, throw a stone and you might find a contract to add a project manager. So for agencies that haven't worked with a freelance project manager before, or maybe they've had a bad experience with some of them, where can they go to find a good one? And what should they be looking for just to find the best fit for what they need?
Marissa Taffer: Yeah, I mean, I think the answer to that question really depends on what they need. So, I would say, again, we've talked about this a little bit earlier in the episode, but really get clear on what those needs are, and then maybe ask if you belong to a community of agency owners, you have friends in the industry, a lot of my business comes from referrals, so I did an Asana setup for a client.
He was really happy with it. He sent his buddy over to me. I did his on a setup recently and had a really great time doing it. So it works out really well for me because I tend to end up working with these really terrific people who all know each other. It works out really well for the agency or the marketing team because they're getting a vetted person who is a bit of a known entity.
So I would say start by asking for referrals. Again, if I'm like book solid, I know people, I will happily point you to people. Some of us, like even in doing what I do, I make sure to network with my peers so that I know, if something's not a fit for me, I know who to pass it to and say, Hey, maybe I can't do this, but my colleague so and so really specializes what you need.
You should talk to her and facilitating that way. So I would say starting with your network, if you have no network and you are on an island, I would start maybe on LinkedIn even and start poking around people's profiles or hashtags or looking for people who seem to do this work and read what they write, read what they say, hear how they talk about their approach to their work.
And if something is starting to resonate with you, maybe a discovery call or conversation with that person is a really good place to start. It'll help you get clear. I know I do discovery calls with folks all the time. I don't usually charge for the first either half an hour or an hour, depending on where you're coming from.
And I'm happy to sit and noodle with you on what do you really need, what does that look like? And, could it be a fit for us to work together?
Galen Low: You're absolutely right. There's so many things you can ask a contract project manager to do. I say you need to know what that is. And there's so many folks who are good at many different things.
I love that sort of referral network thing. A) there is benefit, I think, of working with someone that someone you know has worked with, not just because you can trust them, but because there's just this sort of stitching that happens in this sort of that community vibe. And I love that notion that yes, if it's not a fit for you, like you might know someone who it would be a good fit for. So it is part of the search sometimes as well.
Marissa, thanks so much for spending the time with me today. This has been a lot of fun. I've learned a lot and I think our listeners have gotten a lot from it as well. We should definitely have you back and I want to dig into some of the nitty-gritty, maybe some of the tough parts of being a contract project manager.
But in the meantime, how can our listeners find a little bit more about you?
Marissa Taffer: They can visit my website mtafferconsulting.com or look me up on LinkedIn. I'm always happy to connect with other freelance project managers, agency owners, or anybody who's dabbling in the space.
Galen Low: Awesome. I will add those links in the show notes and Marissa, thanks again.
Marissa Taffer: Thanks for having me.
Galen Low: Alright folks, there you have it. As always, if you'd like to join the conversation with over a thousand like minded project management champions, come join our collective. Head on over to thedigitalprojectmanager.com/membership to learn more. And if you like what you heard today, please subscribe and stay in touch on thedigitalprojectmanager.com.
Until next time, thanks for listening.