Behöver frilansande projektledare verkligen branscherfarenhet?

Galen Low: Finding the right freelance project manager can be nerve-wracking. On the one hand, you might find yourself looking for someone who happens to have extensive experience delivering exactly the type of platform integration and food safety audit combo project that you've somehow become the owner of. On the other hand, you might find yourself wanting someone that can be more of a strategic partner, someone who understands your industry and knows how to drive your objectives.

In both cases, it can feel like searching for a unicorn. But does like-for-like experience even matter? And if not, what are the signals that indicate that an experienced freelance project manager can deliver value even if most of their work has been in a completely different vertical? To answer that, I've brought in a coach and entrepreneur who leads a community of over 2,200 freelance project professionals.

Together, we're going to unpack how companies and freelancers can make it easier to find the right fit, where related experience matters and where it doesn't, and what steps a freelance project manager would need to take to expand beyond their niche. Hope you enjoy the episode.

Welcome to the Digital Project Manager Podcast—the show that helps delivery leaders work smarter, deliver smoother, and lead their teams with confidence in the age of AI. I'm Galen, and every week we dive into real-world strategies, emerging trends, proven frameworks, and the occasional war story from the project front lines. Whether you're steering massive transformation projects, wrangling AI workflows, or just trying to keep the chaos under control, you're in the right place.

And if you've been liking what you've been hearing from us lately, please consider following us wherever you're finding us, and maybe even leaving us a review. All right. Let's get into it.

With me today is Ashanti Johnson, founder of the Freelance PM Club and owner of Strategy House. Ashanti is a PMP and PMI-ACP certified project professional, consultant, and entrepreneur with more than a decade of experience leading projects and consulting engagements across finance, e-commerce, technology, and marketing.

She's the beating heart behind the Freelance PM Club, a workforce platform and community of more than 2,200 project professionals at various stages of their freelance and consulting journeys, working across industries and specialties. She also leads Strategy House, where she helps businesses improve how they operate through better systems, processes, and automation.

Through her work, Ashanti has become passionate about helping project professionals think beyond the traditional career path and explore freelancing, consulting, and other ways to build independent careers around their expertise. And she shares that expertise through education, resources, tools, and content designed to help project professionals navigate the business side of working independently.

Ashanti, thanks for joining me today.

Ashanti Johnson: Thank you for having me.

Galen Low: Here's a little roadmap that I've sketched out for us today. First, I just wanted to hit you with a bit of a controversial question that my listeners would love to get your take on, but then I'd like to use that as a lens to just look at three things.

First, I'd like to explore how hiring managers can ask better questions and make better decisions when engaging freelance PMs from different industry backgrounds. And then I wanted to get your advice on how freelance project managers can honestly evaluate their skills and position themselves effectively when shifting into other industries.

And then lastly, I'd like to talk about what employers and freelancers need to be doing to educate one another to shape the future of the freelance project management model. How does that sound to you?

Ashanti Johnson: Yeah, that sounds good. These are all very good topics to touch base on.

Galen Low: So I think it's pretty easy for a project manager to accrue a bunch of experience in a narrow niche within an industry.

That might be because they love Salesforce implementations or digitizing citizen services for local governments, or it might be because someone noticed they were good at it, and then they got typecast as a result. But either way, right, it's pretty easy for that niche to go from being an advantage to quickly becoming a disadvantage, leaving them up the creek, I guess, in the competitive marketplace.

So m- my question is this: Does a freelance PM have to have industry experience to be effective?

Ashanti Johnson: Not necessarily. It can certainly be helpful, but I always say focus on your niche and specialty. And when I say that, people still put it in a box within a industry. And there's certain things like construction engineering, where you may do certain jobs on the field as a project manager and oversee sites, right?

So that's very industry, particular to the industry. But then you have things like doing implementations like you said, Salesforce implementations, creative strategy projects, things of that nature where it's, can transfer across so many different industries, right? I can work on creative and strategy projects.

Every company needs that, from car, vehicle projects, I have consultants within the Freelance PM Club, they work for companies like Mercedes-Benz, down to working with clothing companies. So they always need help, operational help, project management help. You can do operational help for healthcare companies, finance companies, right?

So when you say that you are here to be a freelance project manager for a company, it's not so you're just focusing on the industry. You're focusing on your talent, right? So I always say focus on the outcome. When you're talking to clients in the discovery call or you're thinking about working with certain different people, you can work across so many different industries if you know they have a need for your services.

For instance, came from a finance background, right? So that's a very particular industry. I worked with finance, wealth management, and fintech when I was in corporate. So working for myself, when I first got started, I think my number one mistake was thinking that those were the only companies I could work for.

And it didn't take me long. It only took b- me about a month to realize that I could actually work for so many different people. I actually got my master's degree in supply chain management, but at the time I pursued it, I had a project management background already and was working in project management within finance.

So at the time, when I was in corporate, I, I was younger at the time, probably 22, and I was like, "I'm just going to stay in finance." So it took me a while to even figure out what I like to do as a project manager.

Galen Low: I love that, and I love that journey. And exactly what you're saying about financial services really resonates with me, especially in an industry like insurance.

You know, you start working there when you're young, there's a lot of opportunity, and then there's there's jargon and acronyms and there's the business model, and you kind of accrue this knowledge base of that industry, and you're like, "Oh, this is yeah, I'm home. This is where I need to stay.

That is my expertise. My expertise is I know what that acronym means, and I know what to do about it, and therefore, yeah, I'm comfy." But it doesn't mean that you couldn't take on projects in other industries. I think you have a really good point about certain industries. I'm, I'm picturing your taxonomy being like, okay, there's relationships between industries.

Some of them are more similar in terms of business models, some of them are a little bit different. I do not think I could just put on a hard hat, go to a construction site and be like, "Yeah, I got this," you know? "Let's manage this project." I don't even know the process, and I think that's going through my head right now.

I'm like, "I don't know the process. I'd have to get smart on the process." You know, it's not impossible, but I, I have work to do. Versus if I was going to, for example, go from you know, a lot of my experience is in public sector and if I were to move into sort of, yeah, private sector fintech I'd still be like, okay, right?

I'd have some things to learn, but the, the business mechanics and how value is delivered, I'm like, okay, I, I can get on side with that. And I think the other point you raise is, is, is a hugely good one. You got exposed to a lot of different types of projects, and so there's this taxonomy of types of projects where you're like, okay, I do, you know, Asana implementation, or, you know, I do, you know, this type of process optimization, and I can do it in almost any industry.

And that kinda gives you that lateral sort of adjacent flexibility. And also could pigeonhole you . But in other words, yeah, you don't wanna be put in a box where you're like, "Yeah, all I do is Asana implementations." It's one of the things you can do and you have experience doing, and then that can translate to other things.

You are someone who supports freelance project managers at, like, all stages of their independent career journey. You've also been working with businesses to enhance their ability to achieve things like on-time delivery and operational efficiencies. So, the way I see it you get to see both sides of the coin.

And even though there are loads of businesses in various industries undertaking transformational projects, and even though there's loads of talented project professionals entering the freelance market, it still kinda seems like there's a great deal of friction in the recruitment process. What are some of the things that you see in the market that are making it difficult for businesses and freelance project managers to find a good match, and what might be driving that?

Ashanti Johnson: Yeah. Well, what we're seeing in the market today, especially more so in corporate hiring, is just the economy's bad, right? And that's where we get a lot of companies, startups, bigger enterprises, medium-sized businesses, where they wanna hire on contract, right? And you know, a contract project manager is not a new concept.

It's becoming more popular, but I feel like it's always been something where companies have utilized. Even working in finance, we would hire outside consultants, outside consultant agencies, smaller, larger, individual consultants, and it's just becoming more popular now because I think people are looking to cut costs but still do things really effectively.

They need a outcome, right? You'll hear me say outcomes a lot, and people are like, "What does that mean?" When you come into a business and you're a project manager, a lot of people from entry level, medium level, senior level project managers make the mistake of thinking that they think a little bit too broad actually, right?

It's okay to have a niche and specialty that transfers across industries, but they're like, "I'm a project manager. I came here to work on projects." And it's like, okay, so what did you come to solve for this company, right? So when I think of all my experience, like when people say, "Make sure you're being strategic on a resume," right?

So even when you think of your resume, I think of my resume, like when someone asks me a question I can answer what I do. So when someone's speaking to me, again, being on the technical implementational side, I'll say things like, you know, I lead projects for various organizations, small, medium, large, on their technical projects and their implementations, right?

And for a certain company, if I'm doing discovery call, for instance, I can very much so say what I could, you know, help them with. Even sometimes people hire or want to hire a project manager, they don't know what they want them to do. So on the hiring side, I think it's very important to think about okay, if you're saying, and there's a lot of different roles a project manager can play and that's another thing.

People get too hung up on the title of project manager to the point where they don't even know all of what their talent is. So you could be more implementation, or you could be more operations. You could be an HR project managers are a thing, right? Leading projects on that sector. So when you're hiring for a project manager, a very simple thing for, from the hiring side is what do you want them to do?

And that could be hard, right? Sometimes people know they need a lot of help, and it could You know, cross a few different verticals in their business. But just narrowing down three things you would want your, you know, project manager, if you're hiring on contract, fractional or consultant basis to do.

And from the, the freelancer side, the consultant or fractional side, the person working on contract, what are you hoping to deliver? And with AI coming into play, a lot of times people think AI can do things that really it can't do yet. We hear all the time that AI is replacing project managers or software engineers, and data hiring statistics don't show that, right?

It's still fields that are growing. But what I also say, as far as trends in the market, AI is important. There's a lot of things from AI automation to engineering that have trended throughout 2026 that are going to continue to trend throughout 2027. So, I think that from the freelancer side, you don't have to know how to be an automation engineer, but understand what that means for you and how you use your skills, or even how you use AI to do your day-to-day work, right?

Everybody uses AI to some extent, but also making sure that it makes you more efficient as a project manager. And if your client the business or enterprise you're going to be working for wants to use AI, being able to strategically say how AI should be placed in the business. And AI can be placed across so many different niches and specialties of what you do.

Whether you're on the creative side of thing, operational, or implementation side, AI plays a factor in your job.

Galen Low: I like where you went with that, because originally, when I was thinking about the freelancer market, I was like, "Okay, well, you know, if you're gonna bring on a full-time hire, you kinda want a generalist.

You wanna be able to get maximum bang for your buck for this full-time employee that you're going to get equipment for, that you're gonna get benefits for, that you're going to, you know, put on payroll." Whereas if you are doing contract work or you're working with a freelancer, my mind immediately went to, "Okay, well now you can hire a scalpel.

You can hire that person who just does, you know, Asana implementations. Maybe they're in and out, or maybe they're going across departments, and then they're out but at least you can pick someone with this really deep expertise in a certain thing. But then you went the other way and, and that resonated more with the stories that I'm hearing, that not all hiring managers or organizations looking for a freelance project manager are like, "Oh, I need a project manager to do these, you know, three to five things."

In some cases, it's a, "I need somebody that I can rely on to just get some stuff done." And at that moment, it's like, what's more important then is someone who understands my business and my goals and is going to ask the right questions of me to make sure that it goes well, which is the opposite of what I was thinking originally.

I mean, don't get me wrong, I'm sure both happen, right? Okay, I need someone who just this-- you know, who knows this financial system, who knows this travel system, like Sabre or whatever, and I need someone who does that. But there's also the other side, which is I need someone... I don't even know if I understand what project management is, but I think it's about getting stuff done.

I need someone like that to come in and not, you know, go you know, throw, throw the dictionary, the project management dictionary at me, but actually speak my language, right? I wanted to come back to that because there's a thing, there's a tone that when you describe your meetings with potential clients, right?

Prospects they don't seem like job interviews. Like in other words, I know a lot of people approach job interviews as "Okay, I gotta prep for these questions they're gonna ask me," you know? "Tell me about a time when you stubbed your toe and learned something about B2B marketing," or, you know, you go you know, "What do, what are, what is your weakness?"

Versus I think your conversations seem you know, almost on equal footing, right? You're, like, establishing a partnership there. That kind of sets a different tone. And I'm, I'm thinking through, you know, independent careers versus, you know, trying to land a full-time gig. Do you see more freelancers getting hired faster than their sort of 9:00 to 5:00 counterparts?

Ashanti Johnson: Yeah. I mean, and this is controversial. I remember the first time somebody asked me this, my answer was yes then, and it's yes now, right? Because, so the freelance market is so, like I said, it's not really new to be a contract project manager, but it's something that's growing because we have the concept of portfolio careers where you may be a project manager in a larger company by day freelance and consult on the side, sell some digital pro- Like, you have this whole thing going around your project management career in a certain specialty or niche, right?

And I think that this concept of portfolio careers has been growing with people wanting to really build their brand outside of a company. And again, the economy plays a huge part in this because with hiring being where it is right now, the average person could be on the job market for six months on average, right, trying to find a job, and that's on the lower end.

There's stories of people being on the job market for a year-plus to a year and a half plus, and it's not their fault. It's just so much oversaturatedness in the market right now, and people going back to hiring, they're trying to be strategic with hiring, especially because of where the state of spending is at.

And so where you see freelance and contract talent growing over 2024 and 2025 into 2026, about 37% of people in the US at least freelance. We're expecting to see freelancers and consultants grow in throughout 2027, so from the point of 37% of freelancers freelancing in the last few years now going to 50%, that means that so many different people, whether it's on part-time nature or full-time nature, want to build their own thing or work for themselves.

And I will say, again, this is different for everybody, but in my experience, I could be looking for a client and the turn real time be less than a month. We can't- Again, see the same in the job market where we're seeing people in the job market looking for a job for six-plus months on average. So I think that there's so many different tools to use from job boards freelance platforms, cold outreach, networking, and people are more receptive to hiring talent on contract than they've ever been because of the fact that there is so much going on with the economy where companies may be trying to tighten spend, but they still need things done.

And not even just from a spend perspective, I think a lot of companies, especially when they're startups or smaller, they might need a particular project done, but they don't need full-time talent, and I think that's why it can be, I won't say easier, but it can be a faster process because they need help on one particular thing, and they need you to do it as soon as possible.

Galen Low: I like the point you made that sometimes I, I sort of think of contract or freelance or fractional work as being, like, start and finish. Contract has an end date. Maybe it'll get renewed, maybe it won't, but in some cases, it, it does become this long-term relationship, and it's, it's funny. In my head, I'm like, okay, well, yeah, it makes sense because right now, you know, everything's getting disrupted.

A lot of businesses don't know what they'll need in, you know, 18, 24 months' time. So, a full-time hire becomes a much bigger decision where you do want to have them talk to all these different department heads and the C-suite team, panel interview assignment. You wanna make a really good decision.

It's more like deciding to get married versus the, the freelance conversation is like finding a plumber. You're like, "Oh my gosh, the pipe burst. We need to fix it. Are you the right fit? I'm not gonna pick anybody, but I just wanna talk to a few people, find the right fit for me." Ideally there's someone who can like, you know, understand the problem, take care of a few other things.

If it goes well, yeah, maybe we'll keep them on. And I, I, I I think it's interesting, like the decision is different and therefore the speed is different. Not to say one is better than the other, but yeah, the urgency is there, and it could be more of a snap decision. But that doesn't mean it's going to be a short engagement.

It actually could be the start of a, you know, a great relationship.

Ashanti Johnson: And I like what you said about the fact that a snap decision does not mean that you're in and out, right? You worked on a project for two weeks or a month. There's been so many times where I've spoke to someone on a discovery call, a prospect, and we've got 'em the contract going that day, right?

It's just a matter of sending an email and sending a contract. Now, there's some times where, again, there's a hold, right? It might be a few weeks or something. Now, the key thing is always speaking to the decision maker when you do these prospect calls, because the decision maker, whether it's the owner, the president, the director of some department that needs the freelance help, they are going to be able to do decision that this day, right?

So it's a snap decision, but you may end up working with them indefinitely, right? And I like the analogy of the marriage and the plumber, because a lot of times with corporate, we hear all the time where, going back to being more of a generalist in corporate, you can tell a project manager, we need you to work here and do this and this.

Even if it's not in the job description, y'all have to do it, right? And you hear all that type of you know, comments from employees all the time of "This is not in my job description," and they're working on these things. But like in marriage, there's a lot of things you wouldn't do, right, if you didn't...

people may not wanna take out the trash that day. They may not wanna paint y- the wall in the house. But it's all a part of the team effort, so it's a great analogy, where as a freelancer consultant, you, you wouldn't tell your plumber to now go paint your roof, right? So like they have a particular thing they're going to do.

Galen Low: I love that. And actually, that brings us back to, you know, what I see as a central question for our conversation, which is like, does a freelance project manager need to have experience in a certain industry in order to be effective? I wanted to look at it actually from the hiring manager standpoint, because you raised a couple good points about do people know what they want?

They, they-- Someone told them, right, a referral, "Oh, I know this great project manager who can get stuff done for you." They get on the call, they're like, "I don't really know what a project manager does, but here's my problem." And you're like, "Okay, well, I can solve it." It's, it's logical That someone on the hiring side might start their search for a freelancer by looking for a specialist in their industry or a specialist in that type of project.

You know, it's like, okay, well, does this plumber do you know, like main pipe bursts, right? Okay 'cause that's what I need, and so, that's the only plumber I can find. But is there a benefit for hiring managers to engage a freelance project manager with little or maybe even no experience in their industry?

And if so, what skills or like qualities or characteristics should that hiring manager be asking about or evaluating instead of just like looking for an apples-to-apples like project experience?

Ashanti Johnson: Yeah, and it can all be based on preference, right? Like I s- there are certain industries where it can be very particular on what you need, like that person to do.

If I know I need someone that has experience with construction management because even though they're going to come in, I work fully remote, but there's, you know, instances of contracts and consultant where you may need to travel for work or be on site that makes sense, right? Like I would not be a great construction site type of project manager.

And that's why you can tell from, you know, the freelancer side, you cannot mess apply or submit proposals, proposals to things because there's going to be instances where it's not going to make sense for your skillset. From the hiring manager side, I think that it's more important to look at, going back to what I said earlier, some of the skills or the outcomes you're hoping for them to achieve.

So let's take a healthcare industry or, or a company, right? Let's take the healthcare companies, and let's say they know they need to hire someone that is going to oversee projects with operation and compliance. What could be helpful, because the healthcare is one of those industries where they have very, you know, certain rules and regulations around things, that could make sense if this person should know a little bit about the regulations with HIPAA or compliance around that.

Finance is a very heavily regulated industry in a different way, but like you were saying earlier, if you take a diagram, there's all these different verticals that kind of, you know, overlap with each other, but they aren't following the same rules and regulations. So that could make sense, right? So it's not the same exact rules, but it's kind of like, "No, if this is not followed, this is a huge problem," type of thing.

Whereas if maybe I was a project manager more familiar with working with creative strategy projects for clothing brands, they have regulations in the clothing industry, right? Certain products and materials being used in certain regions, but that may not overlap as much, right? So it's just, one, being honest or making sure that your freelancer is being honest, your consultant is being honest, and what is it that they speak to that leads you to believe that even if they don't have experience in this industry, they would be a good fit for solving a problem.

And if you focus too much on, "I need someone that work in healthcare," you may get a project manager that has worked in healthcare before, but they've never worked on operational and compliance projects, right? So that's where sometimes it doesn't help either, right? Because just because someone has worked in a certain industry doesn't mean they have the skills to lead this project.

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Over 6,000 companies rely on Fingerprint every day. Join them now at fingerprint.com. And now, back to the show. I wonder if because, you know, you are, you run your own business, like sometimes you're hiring. If putting yourself in that hiring manager's shoes, like what's a question you could ask to find out if that person like really understands like regulation or compliance, or even just to assess whether or not they've got the right sort of level of like due diligence and caution that you would want in something like a healthcare project?

Ashanti Johnson: Yeah, that's a great question. Going back to something you said earlier of like not processing things like a interview, I think that's a very important strategy for me from a entrepreneurial standpoint, but also the perspective of coming in as the freelancer and consultant. I don't allow myself to be interviewed.

If you ask me about strengths and weaknesses, I would be so confused. I wouldn't end the call immediately 'cause that's rude, but I would be like, "This is not... I came to talk..." 'Cause usually I have, you know, researched the client unless it's like a referral, right? And it's just "Hey, so and so wants to talk to you."

Then I have to be more quick on my feet and think through what they're saying to me. But I have some knowledge of like what's going on, so came to talk about outcomes and strategy. I don't want to talk about my strengths and weaknesses. Let's say, for instance, I'm hiring for a chief of staff, which has a lot of project management based talent behind it, right?

They might do something across all verticals. One important thing that I would be looking for and have been looking for is more so "Hey, how do you pivot?" Right? That's an important question. That's an important question for me because as a growing startup, like I have processes as project manager.

I'm going to have processes, right? My project management brain, I'm like, I can explain to you everything of the process right now at my company. But I can't explain to you what the process is going to be in a month, and it's probably going to be diff- A month. So are you okay? And people, again, would maybe say they're okay with it, but not be okay.

So I'm gauging to now to without asking, tell me a time, you know, I'm allowing them to speak to how they have processed that in other situations and how they have led change in those situations. And I'm looking for is this person, 'cause usually a chief of, chief of staff is going to make your job easier, make, you know, managing your staff easier, like, how is their overall tone with how they answer that question?

Okay, I cannot just pivot, but here's what I would do for you, because I'm looking for, especially hiring a startup basis, and a lot of startups are looking for this, like the person that may not need to be told everything, right? It's not chaos over here, but I can't tell you like, what's your, what's your idea?

What's your thought process without me giving you a rule book? 'Cause that's a lot of times what sometimes people are expecting, even going to freelance consulting. A lot of these companies, even larger enterprises I've worked with, they are being held together by a safety pin and an Excel sheet, and they have 10,000 employees.

It can be a little bit chaotic, and I think that's okay, but you're looking for the person that can come in and say, "Nope, this isn't right." And so that's what I'm looking for. And you know what I was really impressed with, what I went with for my chief of staff is they asked me a question. They're like, "If you were talking about me," you know, similar to how I have been referred to people "Hey, this is probably a really great project manager."

They're like, "If you were talking about me in three months to someone you know, what would have to be true for you to feel like this hire is a great decision?" I was like, "I've never been asked that before." And it was a really great question and just, you know, the overall tone of the conversation, how they were able to answer things of strategy and execution.

And again, they did not have a particular experience in startup or SaaS or workforce platforms, but it was more so speaking to their strategy behind things they have done for other clients, how they've been able to solve problems. And so even with the healthcare compliance example, again, for me personally, if I was hiring for something in healthcare compliance or a compliance type of consultant in general, I just need you to speak to more so how can you actually...

what are some times that you may have been up against a wall with a certain compliance regulation that did not get followed? How did you fix that? You know, things like that. So, you know, just making sure that without asking like what are your strengths or weaknesses, because that may not be helpful, like what are they actually knowledgeable on solving in terms of what you need done?

Galen Low: It's funny 'cause a- as you describe it, it, it strikes me that the nature of the conversation is a bit different than a traditional interview. So, as a hiring manager, you can also be, you know, more direct, "I need this thing done. Can you help?" And you're evaluating their abilities in that context, not necessarily the traditional, you know, tell me what your spirit animal is questions that you might have in an interview.

I wonder if we could flip it around because, you know, we, we, we have also been talking about, you know, project managers in general, sometimes we get, you know, pushed into a niche, and sometimes that serves us until it doesn't. And I know a lot of freelancers in my community, and I think in yours as well, who are, you know, like kinda trying to change their stripes a little bit, but it's okay, well can I?

So like for freelance PMs out there who have spent years like in the same industry and they're like looking to branch out into new industries and new types of projects, like what advice would you give them, and how should they be evaluating their fit in like an honest way? Not like the, "I'm a project manager, I can do everything," you know, give me my cape.

But like- Okay, here are the things that I can do, here are the things that I probably couldn't do, but it's still an expansion of, you know, oh, I'm, I'm in this niche where all I do, you know, is CRM implementation.

Ashanti Johnson: Yeah, and I think that's a really good question. We have coaching sessions, we have office hours in our community, and a lot of times, especially in coaching sessions, a exercise that the coaches walk people through, more so on their first session because that's typically can be people that are new to freelancing or consulting, or it's consultants that have some, you know, stake in the game, but they're looking for more direction on finding clients and just changing things up.

And so the exercise essentially identifying your positioning statement, right? So it's almost like kind of your elevator pitch. I don't need you to write it down or display on a website but I do need, if I was asking you a question about what you do I can understand it. It's almost explain it to me like I'm five.

Tell me in one to two sentences what it is you do, and tell me in a sense this is something that I... If I'm telling someone I can- what I do, I'm either looking for a new opportunity, it could be a referral down the line, or I'm speaking to a prospect. That's how you should think of it. And what you do is I'm not a...

A lot of times, especially if you're coming from corporate, transitioning from corporate, people get so hung up on rankings and job titles. And that's one thing I will say with freelance consulting. It's like you almost can't be ego-based. An example that was used, you know, people that work for themselves, entrepreneurs, consultants, they are, you know, high talent high skill but maybe lower visibility, right?

So we don't have all those titles because working for myself, coming from corporate, having senior titles and VP titles or senior manager type of titles, I don't call myself and my business senior vice president of... It just would be cra- it would be crazy, right? I call myself a consultant and owner of the company.

We have to be able to, rather than explain the title and be interviewed, right? So walk them through your, you know, the time that you worked as a senior associate way back in 2018. Let's actually speak to the now and the outcomes that you provide through your service. So like for a basic example I always use within the Freelance PM Club, like coaching sessions, where sometimes I spend time as a coach, I would say "Hey, like I'm a creative project manager.

I work on leading strategy across marketing projects for small woman-owned clothing brands or something." That's not what I do, but that's something that someone could say, right? And it's very easy for someone to capture, a potential client or prospect to say "Oh, okay. Well, I actually do need help with the strategy and I'm a woman-owned client brand, or I know a woman owns, you know, a clothing brand."

And so I think that one thing that people don't know about freelancers and consultants, and there's a study on this, typically freelancers and consultants have more educational certifications, degrees than their full-time counterparts. And it makes sense because again, you're leading outcomes and strat- it's v- it's very outcome and strategy-based, even from the beginner level.

You may not have to have years of experience, like 15 years of experience running projects project management tools, but you just have to be able to lead an outcome. So where you see more of the education in your freelancers and consultants is because everything is always moving, right? Even with AI.

So if someone's hiring talent, they're hiring for one certain thing. They're not hiring a generalist and they don't have time to train you, right? They may be able to take you through their company procedures, but they're not trying to train you on how to lead something. So if you don't have And not education in, you know, maybe a fancy cert or even having your PMP, but being able to speak to those skills.

So a lot of times there is more education around the things that they want to do, whether it's AI or creative and marketing and branding. And one of those things I would tell people, too, is it's okay to upskill and just take... YouTube University, right? I mean, we have and we have a lot of courses on our website, too, that touch base on some of the entry-level project management things, as well as you guys.

You have a lot of courses and resources that people need to take advantage of and just upskilling. And so working for myself, I knew about all of these project management tools like Jira, Monday, Asana, but I hadn't used them in my day-to-day at work. So it just took me a few weeks in my free time.

I said, "I'm just going to spend time learning about these different tools," right? A lot of these tools have free courses on their site. There's, again, platforms like yourself, my platform, that have things that will introduce you, or maybe an article that explains a quick overview of how this tool works.

There's so many different resources where maybe you're not going back to school, right? You're not spending two, three, four years going back to school, but you're learning about this different tool or aspect of something you wanna learn about because you wanna become better. So I just took some time to do that for myself because it...

I was really much thinking like, "Hey, I have to know how to speak to these things if I'm going to work more so on the technical side of implementations and how these tools work." I didn't need to know everything, but I just needed to know a little bit more that I wasn't getting from my corporate career.

So just always taking the time to upskill as well.

Galen Low: There's so much I love about that. First of all, about the elevator pitch. You know, it's not something you necessarily write down. You need to have that on speed dial. I also like the idea that you might adapt it depending on the client And then the third thing you said was like, you know, maybe your positioning is in there, not as like a, "Oh, pick me, pick me," but also your criteria for selecting a client, you know, supporting women-owned businesses.

You know, it can be a thing that opens up, you know, a lot across industries. S- doesn't mean that's the only, you know, client you'll get, but it sort of situates you in terms of the market and your values. I really like that sort of idea of understanding what the outcomes are of what you do versus regurgitating what your job description was in your last job because I think that is, is, is the valuable bit as well.

And then of course, yeah, like upskilling is going to be a thing if you're going to leap from one industry to another and you're like, "Okay, don't worry, I've got everything." It's worth it to get a deeper understanding and, and sort of, have that depth of knowledge, not becoming an expert, you know, not YouTube university, you know, the, the the doctorate program, you know, 80 hours a week just like sitting in front and learning.

But like knowing enough to understand how to drive an outcome and explain how you would drive that outcome. I'm curious, have you had someone in your industry-- Have you had someone in your community rather, who is like making a, like a really big leap? You know, like maybe they are going from in-person event planning to whatever machine learning infrastructure.

One of the things that, you know, we had in the, in the question was like, how can you look at yourself honestly? And how would you help someone honestly evaluate where they would be strong in that industry and, like, where their gaps might be, and, like, when might it be too big of a leap?

Ashanti Johnson: Yeah. So I actually have that a lot of the time in my community with people that are very much so on the entry level or senior level, 'cause from the entry level, you are trying to figure out what your skill is, and then sometime on the senior level, what happens is you already have been working in a certain area for a, a while, but now you're like, "I'm tired.

If I'm going to work for myself, I need to learn something else." And actually, the example you gave is perfect because a lot of times what people want to pivot to is something technical, especially within the implementations. I didn't realize how popular implementations was until I started doing it, and it's probably because of all this new technology, AI, and people need systems that work, right?

And they need the systems that go into products, services, programs, client initiatives. Like, all of those are what keep things running, and I think that, you know, having someone that can work on that really well with a certain baseline of technical understanding, you don't have to know coding, but just understanding the implementations of a good business case is super important.

And so a lot of times we see people trying to get into something like that, right? Where it's a little technical, but they are not a software engineer, right? And like I was saying a little bit earlier, there's so many different trends in AI right now, and the most popular trends is something around AI automations and engineering.

And you don't have to be someone that works as an engineer, but understanding how that impacts you as a project manager and the projects that people are looking for If you are looking at a business case for something for a client and again, as a freelancer consultant, you can speak up and say, "Hey, like this is, this...

I would do this project a little bit differently," type of thing. One thing that you need to know is your skill set. So I think that with people looking to make a leap, typically what happens even let's say they are more operational but they wanna hop to something more creative what I would tell people is because you're looking to get started in freelance consulting, be honest with where you are today.

So for me it was just being honest of like I have great skills in this area, but I need to learn more about certain things, whether it was technology, you know, how to pivot a understand business case was a huge thing for me. I'm like I can understand a good business and use case in finance, but how can I understand that in different industries?

So starting from where you are today, because you could be somewhere else tomorrow, and then trying to understand what you wanna do. So if you were starting in operations but now want to come over to the creative side, what does that take? What are the gaps in understanding that you have right now?

Because that could be a mix of just learning, you know, a few new skills or it could just be quite frankly imposter syndrome, because going back to what I said earlier, there's people who have ne- n- like they don't know anything about the industry. Okay, we need to upskill a little bit, learn a little bit more.

Then there's people that have experience just on side projects they may be doing in their personal time, they just don't feel confident in it. But one thing I like to say is start from today, because what happens is people start thinking they need every certification under the book before they get started as a freelancer consultant.

I'm a PMP holder, but I think that one of the things that people misunderstand about certifications, degrees, anything of the sorts, is they are great to have, especially, right, to put behind your name and just, you know, kind of fancy letters. But I think that the thing that people misunderstand is, again, if you can't explain your skills and what you do, that positioning statement I was talking about, PMP holder or not, you are not going to get an opportunity and client.

If you're trying to start from one area and bounce to the next, evaluate how those will help you do it, right? And that applies even in full-time work, but especially consulting, where things are ever so changing and moving fast. And I have a niche finder quiz on the Freelance PM Club, and it just helps you identify you know, what it is that you would fall into between niches.

And I think that it could be a great starting point for people looking to understand and be more honest with themself of what they actually do, what they have experience versus what they wanna do and really start to learn more about how they want to operate as a freelancer or consultant.

Galen Low: The tools on your site sound amazing.

I think that's a really good way to just, you know, do an honest evaluation of where you're at today and make a plan to get to where you wanna be. But, you know, especially with freelance work, you know, you could do gig by gig by gig. They're all stepping stones towards your goal. You don't have to work somewhere and get a gold pen.

You know, it's not-- We're not talking decades at a time. We're talking about, you know, engagements that lean you in the right direction so that you can say, "Hey, yeah I am good at this. I have experience doing this. Here's where I'm at. Here are some things I'll need to learn, but, you know, I'm still someone who could drive that outcome."

I wonder if we can round out maybe just by talking about the future. The way I see it, some of the stuff that we've been talking about are, you know, finding a good fit. And the way I see it, the freelance PM industry, it's evolving pretty rapidly, and it's doing so to fit an economy and a work culture that are also evolving rapidly.

You know, coming right back to the top I don't know that everyone is on the same page yet in terms of people looking to engage a freelance project manager and freelance project managers themselves What's something that employers and freelancers need to be doing to educate one another and shape the future of freelance project management like together?

How can we achieve this meeting of minds a little bit more than it is today?

Ashanti Johnson: I think that for the future of work in general, but especially with freelance consulting, just, you know, be able to respect the value of talent and how they come into your company because the-- if I am an entrepreneur, even a larger enterprise, and I'm hiring talent on contract, the idea is I need to move my company to the next level.

Sometimes with contract consultants, fractional and freelance, you know, talent that companies are hiring of course, a lot of times these talented individuals are not getting healthcare or benefits because they are working for themselves, which is fine, right? So I pay for my own insurance privately, and I think that it's with the understanding that coming in again, I'm not, I don't-- I have other clients, right?

So from the freelancer side, being honest with that. From the company side, I think that you are not... What you should know is you're not hiring talent to basically say "Hey, well, I have a full-time employee with no benefits," right? I don't think of any talent that I hire as an entrepreneur like that.

I think I have a strategic partner, and that's how you should think of it. Because if you're like, "Hey, essentially this is, you know, this person's coming in, they're coming in to fit the mold of our company culture. They have to kind of fit the status quo without leading the strategy." You might as well hire them full-time, right?

'Cause it's like you need a generalist of everything. I think that from the hiring side, hire talent that you see as a strategic partner rather than a full-time employee without benefits is super important especially for the future of work, because so many people on both sides are a little fatigued, right?

And so many people have so many great talents and skills, but they just wanna be able to display them. And so that's why I say for freelance and consultant talent be able to speak to the outcomes and the strategy and delivery you have led in the past. And maybe if you're entry-level, you don't have a lot of particular project management experience, but let's say you're coming from customer service, teaching, or something, all of those have project management skills, so be able to attest to that because, again, with the future of work changing, one thing that is common in industry trends and reports is that people are looking for skills and outcomes, and they're hiring for that, but in a way we've never seen before because there's so many different technology initiatives, AI, there's so many different things that need to get done.

But it almost seems like people in a haste to get an opportunity, they're like, "I do everything." And there's no way you can do everything great. I know I can't do everything great, right? Some people are a jack of all trades, but when it comes to your profession, just pick something that you know that you have a passion and to do.

And sometimes on the freelancer side, even account for how that makes sense in how you earn, right? There may be things you like to do with nonprofits for instance, but you may find for your niche it's not the most profitable thing, where other niches it could be super profitable. For you it may not be.

It may be something that you do more so as a hobby. So I think that for freelancers, focus especially on outcomes, and for the hiring side, focus on thinking of people like the strategic partners that you see as value in your company, because there's a lot of times where clients will rehire me, like there may be a gap in how we work together throughout the months, but they know that I'm coming back and can get the job done.

Galen Low: I like that. So, on the hiring side, respect the value that your freelancers bring in. They are not full-time employees. Treat them like strategic partners. On the freelancer side, don't put the onus on your on, on the business that's looking to hire you to tell you how you're going to deliver value.

You should know that. Put that on the table. Be more transparent with one another. I like the equal footing thing. That's amazing. Ashanti, thanks so much for spending the time with me today. It's been so much fun. You are somebody who is all over the place. You're on LinkedIn. I think you're on TikTok.

Yes ... you've got your community. W- where can folks learn more about you?

Ashanti Johnson: Yeah, I mean, like you said, I'm a little bit of everywhere. TikTok, so both The Freelance PM on TikTok, but also The Freelance PM Club if you wanna keep up with our company announcements and our page. Instagram, YouTube, we have company pages for each.

So, for all platforms you can visit us at The Freelance PM Club. And you can find me on LinkedIn at Ashanti Johnson, P- PMP, PMI-ACP.

Galen Low: Ashanti, thanks again.

Ashanti Johnson: Thank you.

Galen Low: All right, folks. That's it for this episode of The Digital Project Manager Podcast. If you enjoyed this conversation, make sure to subscribe wherever you're listening.

And if you want even more tactical insights, case studies, and playbooks, create a free account with us at thedigitalprojectmanager.com. Until next time, thanks for listening.