Project versus product: vijanden of machtsduo? Wat project- en productmanagers van elkaar kunnen leren om succesvol te zijn

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[00:00:04] Galen Low: Hey folks, welcome to our session on embracing the overlap between product management and project management.

Uh, we do events like this once, sometimes twice every month, as a way to give our members and our VIP guests a chance to engage directly with some of the experts who contribute and collaborate with us here at the digital project manager and also the product manager. Uh, for those who don’t know me, my name is Galen.

I am the co-founder of the Digital Project Manager. I’m gonna be your host for today. I’ve also got with me an amazing mix of project and product specialists, Evie Brockwell, Jackie Colburn, Phil Araujo, and Jesse Fewell. Um, we are going to do, I paused because I was like, did I nail Phil’s last name because I definitely didn’t in practice.

We’re gonna do formal introductions shortly, but first I thought maybe we could lean into tradition. I was just wondering if you could just let me know in the chat, maybe just where you’re joining from and what the biggest work challenge that you’re [00:01:00] facing today is. It doesn’t have to be a long description, even, just give me like two words that sum it up.

Maybe like roadmap confusion, roll creep, uh, driving alignment on what blend of coffee to put in your IV drip to cope with the increasingly unrealistic expectations of today. Okay. That was more than two words.

So today’s session is all about embracing the overlap between the product management and the project management disciplines and creating a path that keeps you not just relevant in these spaces, but like in demand for years to come.

Uh, so I thought maybe we could start by meeting our panelists. Um, so first up I’m gonna pick on Evie. Evie Brockwell fractional product leader and product coach at Be Optimized, and also the co-host of a lovely podcast called Product Confidential. Evie, you run a course specifically for product managers experiencing or teetering on the edge of burnout.

I was wondering what’s a common thread that you see causing burnout in product managers these days, and how do you go about solving for that?

[00:01:58] Evie Brockwell: I mean, I could speak for ages on [00:02:00] this. So this is the whistle stop tour. But in essence, there’s a lot of people that typically feel disconnected between what it is that they’re doing and the value that they see being created.

And that might not be, that might be because you’re not getting the feedback you expect from product leaders. It might be ’cause you’re context switching. It might be because you’ve worked on a project that gets scrapped. I’m sure everyone here has experienced something like that. In terms of how to solve it.

There are so many different layers, but it starts with understanding what triggers you and then working out whether you can stop those triggers from happening or if you need to try and expand your capacity to cope with them. Whistle stop tool.

[00:02:34] Galen Low: That was a great whistle stop tour and it’s like really relevant I think for today’s conversation.

There’s a lot going on. We’re asked to be doing a lot. There’s a lot of misalignment and value. We’re gonna cover it. Thank you Evie. Um, next up, uh, maybe I’ll pick on Jackie. Jackie Colburn, uh, a strategy design and facilitation consultant, focusing specifically on professionals in product and tech. Uh, Jackie, you are a facilitation master and I’ve been not so secretly following you on LinkedIn for like over a year.

Uh, [00:03:00] fanboying a little bit. Um, just to get my dose of like practical and strategic tips, um, just for you, like what’s the thread of steel that connects leadership facilitation and tech products altogether?

[00:03:10] Jackie Colburn: Yeah, well I love that image of a thread of steel. Nice choice of words there. Uh, for me, that thread is clarity.

So whether I’m working with leaders, with teams, or with a product or my role is to really help them get clear. So they want, we need to get clear on where they’re going, why it matters, and how to move forward together. Um, and in leadership, that clarity really builds trust. Uh, and by facilitation work, it’s all about driving alignment.

And when you’re thinking about, um, tech and product, that clarity really keeps the team focused on solving the right problems.

[00:03:50] Galen Low: Boom. I love that we even have a shout out in the chat. Yes. Clarity, alignment, and especially at speed when technology’s involved. Love that. Um, who should I [00:04:00] pick on next? How about, uh, Philippe Rojo?

Uh, Philippe is an independent growth product strategist and innovation leader at Product Heroes. He’s got over a decade of experience driving product transformation, ai and real growth across international enterprises. Um, but my favorite bit about Phil is that Phil, you are writing a Dungeons and Dragons theme book for product builders.

Um, my question is, is there a project manager character in the story, and if so, are they a trusted ally or are they one of the monsters?

[00:04:31] Phil Araujo: Yes, there is. There is. Thank you for the intro. Um, yes, as you, as you can know, like normally you need like free main type of character or free main role. You know, in any, any type of games you need, like the tank, you need the people that do the damage and you need the support.

So if you have only a project manager, he is the tank. He is one of, he is one of the, the guy that take the agro and, you know, keep at bay the monsters while the, while the, the rest of the team does the damage. Uh, if there is a [00:05:00] product manager, it could be like one of the support. So it depends. It depends on the, on the, on the company.

I’ll take that. I’ll get outside with that.

[00:05:09] Galen Low: Very cool. Glad to not be the monster. Oh, and, uh, last but not least, uh, Mr. Jesse Fewell. Uh, Jesse is the CEO and executive consultant at Fewell Innovation. And Jesse, you’ve actually, you helped inspire this session. You’ve been running some sessions called Project Pro.

Project Project. Yeah. Uh, and it’s aimed at sort of debunking this false war between product and project management, which is, you know, very much a theme for today. Uh, meanwhile, you’re also like the global chair writing the project management institute’s new standard for project management, the Project Pro, the project management Body of Knowledge, AKA, the pmbok, uh, eighth edition.

Um, I’m wondering, can you tell us if there’s like anything exciting in the new PMBOK that’s specifically for product managers that maybe you’re excited about?

[00:05:55] Jesse Fewell: Uh, well, Galen, thank you for inviting me to this, [00:06:00] uh, five ring circus. Uh, this is, this is gonna be a lot of fun. Uh, product managers might be interested to either the current, uh, project management standard, uh, from the Project Management Institute or the upcoming one with respect to one size does not fit all management approaches in the, in the project management community.

We call it process tailoring, which is really just about customizing your approach to a particular industry, an environment, an organizational culture. Um, the specific task in front of us. Uh, and, and so you might be intrigued to check that out because in the most recent standard, in the upcoming standard, there’s a, there’s a methodical framework for how you go about adjusting, finessing, customizing, tailoring your approach to a project.

[00:06:50] Galen Low: I love that. So when, uh, a project manager throws the book at you and you’re a product manager, you can throw the book right back.

[00:06:56] Jesse Fewell: Uh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Uh, but the process [00:07:00] says we have to do it this way, but the process says you have to change. So

[00:07:05] Galen Low: we’re gonna get into a lot of this spicy, uh, these spicy takes.

Um, I’m excited about it. Thank you, Jesse. Um, let me see if I can like tee this up in two minutes ’cause I know I’m already like nine minutes in. Usually I try and do seven. Sorry, everybody. Um, let’s do some context setting. So. Uh, product managers are not project managers and vice versa. That’s been debated to death, but nevertheless, there’s still some overlap in the skills required to be excellent at either.

For example, a product manager leading a team towards a release date could benefit from the project management discipline and a project manager beating back scope creep by gathering user data could benefit from the product management discipline. Both might say that these are extra, they’re not part of their job, and maybe before this year they’d be right.

However, there’s this thing happening where emerging tech and macroeconomic forces are mixing things up and instead of pushing things away into role otherness and like, not my problem, land. [00:08:00] It might actually be more important than ever to move past the debates and look for ways to work together to stay relevant.

So what we’re aiming to do today is have an optimistic discussion between product people and project people about what our roles can learn from one another today and what the collaboration between our two roles will look like in the not so distant future. Alright, um, let’s maybe address the like, role blur at the center of like most of these product manager versus project manager debates.

Um, because I see, and I maybe some of you also see job descriptions and job postings for a product manager that include project management responsibilities and vice versa. When we see that, is it just hiring managers that like, don’t understand the difference? Are they trying to take advantage or is there like something more going on here?

Uh, maybe I’ll pick on Jackie first.

[00:08:55] Jackie Colburn: Happy to start. Well, I will say I started my career [00:09:00] as a project manager two decades ago.

[00:09:05] Galen Low: So when you were like five.

[00:09:07] Jackie Colburn: Yeah, right. Um, but I’ve also been a product strategist, a product uh manager, an experienced strategist, a solution lead. So I think, uh, I mean, what I’ve learned over the course of my career and in working with organizations and product teams inside of many different orgs is that there’s just no standardization and there’s a ton of variability from org to org in terms of how they organize teams and define those roles.

Um, I will also say that when you’re thinking about going after a job. It’s more so about looking at the skills required. And even that may not accurately reflect exactly what a team needs, because a hiring manager may have a template that they’re using that articulates a role that is based on somebody who formerly did that role, or is a template that they [00:10:00] pulled off the internet and isn’t actually accurate.

So I think don’t be afraid to go into a conversation for a role, regardless of what it is titled, and then talk about how your skills can meet the needs that you have seen articulated in that description. And also be open to learning that once you’re in the door, they may need something very different.

And so it’s all about, you know, having that dialogue and having that conversation and really seeing if your skills align with what is needed and whether you’re a right fit for that organization and that team.

[00:10:40] Galen Low: I super love that. I also super love that like, perspective of like, we kind of think it’s all neat and tidy on the other side.

Sometimes it’s messy. Sometimes they just copy and pasted something. They maybe even hadn’t, hadn’t even thought about it. But if you’re thinking about like the value that you’re delivering, then it’s not necessarily a checklist. It’s kind of like a painting of Yeah. And

[00:10:57] Jackie Colburn: I think about, um, you know, telling [00:11:00] stories that articulate your unique value and your skills in a way that somebody can understand and connect to a story that they have in their minds about their own org or their own team.

Um, versus it being like, yeah, like a checklist.

[00:11:15] Galen Low: Boom. I love that. Jesse, you, uh, I know you have some thoughts about kind of job title identities versus Yeah. You know, the reality. Is

[00:11:24] Jesse Fewell: there anything you wanna add here? Indeed. Uh, well, I, I, I want to do a, a big plus one to Jackie’s observation about an industry wide shift away from roles to skills.

And this is becoming even blurrier in, in, in the tech world where we’re starting to see the emergence of funny new title, like, uh, the, the TPM is is a job title that I just didn’t see 10 years ago and, and now and then, and, and Jackie was alluding to the fact that she’s worn many hats. And so the skills movement is very real because [00:12:00] you are more than your job title.

I, I talk to professionals all the time as a, as a coach, um, at, uh, project management, uh, organizational management coach, where we’re really locked in on that job title. And because the job title is a nice quick, handy reference to say, where do I fit in the ecosystem? And too often the time, or most of the time, um, we’re asked to do things that don’t fit our assumption of what that title means.

And so we start to hear what roll creep, roll creep, which, uh, Galen you called out and then Julie over in the chat window totally picked up on that roll. Creep is not roll creep. Roll creep is, can you bring more skills to the table to help us be successful? It’s really about impact opportunity. So you’re, you are more than your job title, and the more that you contribute and more impact you have, the more people are gonna [00:13:00] pay attention.

[00:13:00] Galen Low: Hmm. I love that actually, even just looking at this panel, I’m like, maybe this is an assumption, but I’m looking at a bunch of people who probably didn’t say, no, sorry, that’s not my job. And instead said, yeah, that guy could probably do something like that to add more value, even if it means me, you know, quote unquote putting on another hat.

Um, yeah, I mean, does anyone have a story about how they kind of like took on another hat, um, and what that felt like and why? The answer was yes,

[00:13:30] Jackie Colburn: happy to jump in. Um, because as I shared I’ve worn many different hats and I think that for me, I have a natural curiosity and an openness to push outside the boundaries of my, um, role. And I’ve also been in environments and where that was welcome. So I have worked at product innovation studios that had more of a startup, um.

Mindset. [00:14:00] And so I think that I, it was both, it’s both, you know, aptitude and interest, but also environment.

[00:14:07] Evie Brockwell: Mm-hmm.

[00:14:07] Jackie Colburn: That allowed me to flex. Um, and it’s how I built my skills as a facilitator was by just leaning in and, and starting to do that work even though it wasn’t necessarily a part of my job description.

Um, I’ve also done a lot of, you know, qualitative research and worked with data and analytics, analytics teams to help ’em articulate and visualize the stories that they’re telling, you know, so really just flexing and moving based on the needs of. Moment and the team and the work that is being done.

[00:14:39] Galen Low: I like the sort of value exchange, not because I was told to, but because they actually, you know what, I can, I can do something like, there’s something I’m interested in too.

Um, and uh, somewhere where I think I can add value to kind of like start, start doing that. I, uh, I wondered, this actually kind of like blends directly into the next thing we wanna talk about. ’cause I see the chat going there as well in terms of like, you know, um, role creep and [00:15:00] role blending. Um, and you know, I, from where I stand, I I, I feel like we’re seeing a bit of a resurgence in hybrid roles where like responsibilities from two or more roles are combined into one.

Um, and maybe we can like turn this onto product management and project management. Uh, ’cause like when it comes to product management and project management, like is it realistic for one person to do both roles? And if so, like what are the limits of where this starts to break down? And I, I, Evie, I saw you briefly come off mute and I thought maybe I’d start with you.

[00:15:33] Evie Brockwell: Yeah, I was like, because there’s only been one point in my career where I’ve had a project manager working alongside me as a product person. Hmm. And in that case, like there were some blurred lines of, well actually we need to define the responsibility and who should do what here so that we are not having overlapping calls with developers and we’re kind of arguing with each other on a call as to what should be done.

Totally unprofessional. So we resolve some of those things and I can completely see the [00:16:00] benefit of having someone that can manage across multiple teams, can make sure that they’re doing some of the, the boring reporting that a lot of product people don’t normally want to do. But then since then, I’ve basically worked in areas where I’ve had such a variety of support roles I would call them, which might look like a delivery manager.

It might look like program management. It might look like a technical project manager. But there’s been so many different roles that are defined, and there’s always been an element of. Well, a product person does some of this and this other person supports with that and the constant redefinition even within one organization.

So I’m like, I’ve worn so many hats that I’ve been the person that’s led 14 product teams to get some compliance initiative live, and you’ve had to step in and do some of those project skills without necessarily having the background. So I think that is an ability to do the hybrid role, but if you do so, you can’t, especially speaking from the product manager point of view, you can’t be expected to do everything that a product manager showed in terms of [00:17:00] discovery, working out what problems to solve next, being able to add extra value, being able to assess exactly what’s happened in the market because so much of your time is spent trying to do some of that management and get it over the line.

So instead, you need to find the right support people within the org that can help you with that. So as much as I do think that you could absolutely do a hybrid role, and I think everyone should be able to tap into what’s needed. You really shouldn’t think about trying to do it all on your own. Like as everyone’s saying in the chat, you can sometimes get taken advantage of and you really need to take a step back and say, okay, well, like, as Jackie said, which parts of this am I interested in?

Where do I feel like I’m getting overwhelmed or it’s not adding value, or it’s not a strength in my skillset? And how could we get creative about who else could support me with that? And linking back to the burnout stuff I said at the start, often what people really want is to have that value recognized.

So we only feel like we’ve been taken advantage of if people aren’t saying, do you know what? You’ve done an amazing job, [00:18:00] like you do deserve a different title, or a pay rise, or whatever. So if you are doing a hybrid role, make sure that that’s part of that conversation with your manager so people can acknowledge the value that you’re delivering and, and see the benefits of that.

[00:18:14] Galen Low: I really like that. Like hybrid doesn’t mean solo. Also, every organization might be a bit different. And at the end of the day to have those, yeah, there might be some efficiencies, um, in the vision of having one person kind of taking care of both, but they need to be supported and that needs to be something that is a conversation for that particular organization, reporting structure.

That team really love that. I like that sort of burnout play too. ’cause that’s a quick path, right? I’m gonna wear every hat and I’m alone in isolation. In a vacuum, in a cave trying to do all the things in juggling plates.

[00:18:46] Evie Brockwell: Yeah. And I have no one to talk to because if I say that I’m struggling, people will think have weak, blah, blah, blah.

Mm-hmm. So it’s like so many of us have fallen into that. But there is absolutely something that you can do too. Hopefully, as we’ve all said, use it as a strength. Boom. [00:19:00] I love that.

[00:19:01] Galen Low: Phil, I know that you’ve got thoughts too, and, and, and maybe I will, uh, you know, tap you for a bit of a regional perspective as well of kind of what you see in terms of like the roles, the value, the hybridization thereof, and yeah, whether it works or not.

[00:19:19] Phil Araujo: You’re on mute. I have a different perspective. Um, maybe it’s from Europe, but, um, Kira, I will say that most of the role that you have, especially in big organization, a product manager has to be a project manager. The, the opposite is not necessarily true. Project manager can be just a project manager. Um, and maybe it’s due to the way the role of product manager has evolved here, uh, which is more like a Swiss knife than instead of, um, you know, it does evolve like naturally from.

From project management, it doesn’t have evolved as one thing, you know, from entrepreneurship or startups. Hmm. And so what you see here is that this, [00:20:00] there is, I mean, yeah, there is this thing about hybrid, but not, not totally. It’s more that you have two side to you, um, because also you’re representing the client and you’re doing this, um, the last experience.

You’re kind of de facto put in that position where you have to bring everybody together.

[00:20:15] Jesse Fewell: Mm-hmm.

[00:20:16] Phil Araujo: It makes it really hard though, because you reach a point where you have to involve so many people inside an organization, especially the bigger it is that being in one particular department and not being kind of separated and you know, not being attached to, to someone particularly, makes it really hard to do the role of project management and product management, because everybody thinks that you’re doing that for a product when you’re doing that for a project.

[00:20:41] Jesse Fewell: Mm-hmm.

[00:20:42] Phil Araujo: So. This is why in, in Europe you have this thing that when you’re taken as a product manager, generally you do like a big part of project management Also, it’s, it’s in the last experiences, almost all the last experiences that I had where I had to manage multiple team, and it was, yeah, it was, you were doing part [00:21:00] of a product, but all the rest was almost, uh, project management.

[00:21:04] Galen Low: I think it’s really interesting sort of the directionality of it, that like, it can go one way, but doesn’t often go the other way. Um, but I mean, when you talk about things like leading through influence where you, you know, maybe you have your product team, but you are talking to stakeholders everywhere, calling in favors, getting people aligned, and ultimately orchestrating a thing to happen.

Um, which, you know, a lot of folks like me would be like, oh, that sounds like a project, would you, you know, like, so it kind of, it kind draws

[00:21:29] Phil Araujo: you in. You, you nailed down something, um, earlier when you say, depending on the context.

[00:21:35] Jesse Fewell: Mm-hmm.

[00:21:36] Phil Araujo: Because certain time, you know, you’re gonna be out here as a product manager because, um, you know, the situation of a company is, for example, they have a legacy system and we need to transform it.

So we need an actor of change. We don’t need just someone that comes in and maybe do the growth of a product where it’s like, we know what we’re doing and we know where we are going with it. So it more a role of product management when you are in a phase of transformation, which happen with most of the big companies, [00:22:00] even for startups sometime, because we just go from series A to series B, for example.

Uh, they need someone that has kind of this, this, um, I don’t know, I will say like b, c file, like role, like need to think always on both side, which is okay, like I need to do this, but I have this time to do it. I have this budget, I have those resources, and I know at the same time that those resources are shared with other people.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So how do I make that happen? And when you think about it, when you look at it from this perspective, it’s more of a role of a product manager than the product manager. As Jesse said, it’s a question of responsibility. It’s not a question of title. I think I have, um, one of my posts that work quite well is that you’re too emotional about job title because I think people want to have job title.

I always say like, you can put the job title that you want. You can put like, uh, as I said, you can put like, uh, you know, business night or whatever, like I was putting in the beginning of my career. It doesn’t matter, like if the responsibility that goes behind it match something for this company, the company can call it [00:23:00] the, the way they want.

So that’s the thing that I, I agree totally with Jesse on that is the responsibility that you have at Mars and not necessarily the job title.

[00:23:08] Galen Low: That’s really interesting. And just in terms of like, yes, I, I, you know, I think the, the emerging theme of like, yeah, you aren’t your job title, we’re moving more towards skills-based.

What does that look like in the sort of, you know, when you’re seeking out that next opportunity or promotion or what have you? Um, yeah, the job title doesn’t sort of, yeah, don’t let it put you in a box. I really like that. Um. Oh, I see some good conversation here. I, I’m Phil. I’m gonna like, try at some point to like, grab that video from your, from your, uh, from your profile and, and put it in here.

Um, ’cause your stuff’s been really good lately. Um, it always has, but lately even better. So, um, I’ll, I’ll try and share it here too.

[00:23:45] Jesse Fewell: Quick note, for those of you interested, we put the link to Philippe’s blog post in the chat window.

[00:23:49] Galen Low: Oh, there you go. See? All right. Thank you. I’ve got support, right? I don’t have to wear all the hats.

I’ve got my supporting team here. Thank you for that. Oh, I, [00:24:00] I mean, I guess, you know, one thing, uh, Phil, you touched on it, right? Just this notion of like, cool, I was, I kind of had to figure it out. I had to figure out how to do project management because I started in, in a product role and in the context we were in of more transformation, I ended up being a lot of sort of project management.

Um, and maybe we kind of look at the window both ways, right? Like, I think the, the question for me coming into that, uh, into this whole session was like. Why should product managers care about project management and why should project managers care about product management? And I think the big value exchange thing, which is like, how is each group going to benefit?

Um, because I see a lot of the conversation leaning towards, you know, getting taken advantage of. And like, I’m doing two things. I don’t have to pay for two people. Um, but like, where is there benefit for us to kind of cross train one another between project management and product management so that maybe we all win and hopefully don’t take each other’s salaries.

I saw that somewhere in the chat as well. Um, I know it’s kind of blurry, but Jesse, I thought maybe I’d lead off with you. [00:25:00]

[00:25:00] Jesse Fewell: Yeah, that’s a, that’s an excellent question because I have been on the campaign trail talking to professionals across, uh, the world about this, um, tension between these two communities and these two disciplines.

And I wanna start first by talking to project managers. Hi, I’m Jesse. I’m a project person and I’m sorry to tell you, ladies and gentlemen, we kind of created a stereotype. We kind of did. Um, uh, but the process says we have to do this, or, um, it’s not my job to care about funding. It’s not my job to care about whether or not this project is even worth doing.

[00:25:36] Galen Low: Mm-hmm.

[00:25:36] Jesse Fewell: And we created this, the stereotype that says that project managers have no connection to why they’re even working. And so what’s interesting, um, I think to those professionals that I’m kind of preaching to right now is that for the last 15 years, there’s been an evolution of expectation on project professionals that you do need to be able to articulate why is this [00:26:00] project even worth doing?

You need to contribute to the, the value proposition, the business proposition you might need to contribute to funding. How are we gonna get our, our cash? And, and man, you might be managing cash flow suddenly, you’re now less of a project manager and a little bit of a CEO. On the other hand, I, uh, I like to share with product managers that, uh, there is a solution to your schedule problem or your budget problem.

Uh, product managers I talk to a lot time, um, are, are under a ton of pressure to meet milestones and, and targets, uh, whether those are revenue targets or, or mission metrics, and they’re surrounded by constraints and people telling ’em, you’re being unrealistic. This is not possible. And project management has a long history of techniques about how to make things fit within constraints just for schedule.

There’s a whole toolkit around critical path method, critical chain method, fast tracking, schedule crashing, um, [00:27:00] sprints, et cetera, et cetera. So. The product managers out here, uh, that are listening in might be curious to find that there are some tools to solve the problem of we, uh, I’m, I’m under pressure to get everything done, but I’m under a lot of constraints.

That’s where project management often haves a lot of tools.

[00:27:23] Galen Low: I, yeah.

[00:27:24] Jesse Fewell: Uh, the project people, um, pay attention, think more like product people, product people. Um, we have prob we have solutions to some of your problems.

[00:27:34] Galen Low: I’m like searching for the AP applause reaction, and I almost just did it out loud. So IIII love that.

I mean, I, you know, there’s like, there’s some buzzwords in there, right? You know, you say schedule crashing. I, I have traumatic responses to doing like my PMP exam. Um, and I know this, there’s this vernacular and right, like you said, like we’ve kind of built up this like, reputation of like, you know, throwing out acronyms and really dance [00:28:00] concepts that actually are simple concepts with a really dense word around it.

Uh, bill, I wanted to actually return to what you were saying because you were talking about this notion of like, as a product person, especially in a European context, it’s easy to kind of like have this path towards project management. Um. Is some of this stuff resonating with you, uh, about what Jesse’s saying about project managers?

Like maybe getting a leg up, um, in the sort of context that you’re in both regionally and sort of the enterprises that you deal with. Like, I know it’s not maybe as expected for a project manager to, you know, understand why we’re doing a project and you know, like, um, uh, getting involved in funding. Um, but I guess a, uh, yeah, do you see that as a benefit for project managers that, you know, uh, and maybe even the other side of it being like when you hear project management words, like is it still ick or is it kind of like, yeah, yeah, yeah.

I need to get on top of that?

[00:28:50] Phil Araujo: No, I think for me it should be the, to be honest, it should be the same role. I think project manager should be also a product manager and, and vice versa, whatever we call it, it doesn’t matter to me. Um, [00:29:00] because the, the role of product manager, when you think about it, is the role of a founder at the beginning, right?

The person that start to, or free in their garage, they go from end to end, from the creation of a product. They talk to people, they create something, they launch it, they do everything. And when you’re in an organization, the higher you go, the more impact you want to have. Or the bigger of a problem you wanna solve, the more you’re gonna have to work with different people inside an organization.

And so the problem is that if you look just at yourself and after that you finish with problem, that product manager says a lot of, they don’t agree with my roadmap or they change the priorities or, um, you know, I, I’m not capable to sell it internally, or I don’t recognize what I do, or I don’t see what is the impact of a budget or my, my team got cut off, or things like that.

And when you look into it, this is just almost stakeholder management. Mm-hmm. And where we have the most knowledge of stakeholder management is in, is in project management, not in in product management. Right. Interesting. Project management is how to build a product, not necessarily how you build it with people internally, or [00:30:00] how do you make it work with all the stakeholders that are involved in that.

So having this gap between the two is really useful. It’s, it’s, um, it’s where you learn the most, how to work in big organization because this is the context for most of us.

[00:30:12] Galen Low: Mm-hmm.

[00:30:13] Phil Araujo: And it’s also true on the other side for who are our clients, maybe less in B2C, more in B2B, but if you’re in a B2B context, understanding, um, understanding project management is really useful because it’s also how you’re gonna maybe deliver a project inside a client’s, uh, place or inside a client’s organization.

So all of that are skills that are absolutely needed in B2B. These are all the monsters, by the way. Like Yeah, you, stakeholder management is definitely

[00:30:43] Galen Low: a character that what I, what I like about that is the levels, right? I don’t know if we always consider that

[00:30:50] Phil Araujo: there is also, there is also another thing because a lot of people are, you know, there is obvious question meant about what is happening with product management this year and all that.

And we should be more on the side of a business, which is a weird [00:31:00] discussion that’s happening on LinkedIn since the beginning of the year. But having also those other skills make you more, um, um, you, you get less affected by what is happening in the market. You can do way more stuff. So, which means that you can work in other context, you can change your role, you can be more of a project manager.

Sometime it, it makes you more attractive also on the market. Right? So this is why I think all of this is really helpful. And I don’t believe this is only regional. I believe this is, this is worldwide. ’cause this is what the companies are looking right now. They try to cut costs, so they want someone that is capable to do more things.

[00:31:36] Jesse Fewell: Hmm mm-hmm.

[00:31:38] Phil Araujo: Yeah.

[00:31:40] Galen Low: Let’s, uh, always like that. Maybe let’s take it there because I, you know, the original spirit of where I wanted to go from here was not exactly this, but I’m gonna use it to my advantage, and I think maybe I’ll bundle it together. Um, because part of what I wanted to talk about is like, cool, like how can these two roles play well together?

Like, how should we be in a, you know, in this age of [00:32:00] AI and economic constraints, like how can we work together to like, you know, um, kind of amplify each other’s value. But maybe I’ll add a little inflection because I saw it in the chat as well where, you know, like, um, so in, in the Green Room, Phil had quoted the Hunger Games, uh, and, uh, and I wonder if it’s maybe this, you know, when you like start, like they, whatever, I, I don’t even, I, I’m not that big of a fan, so whatever, they, they start, they fire the gun or whatever, uh, and off you go and you have this alliance until suddenly it’s the two of you left and one of them has to get the other.

Uh, maybe let’s kinda like zooming out from there. How in a perfect world would product managers and project managers be working together, like in 2025, um, and also maybe into the future, maybe even a little bit more skeptically. Where does the rope end where suddenly we’re gonna be attacking one another?

Once again, even if we did collaborate just fine in 2025, and maybe with all of that point at point at [00:33:00] Jackie.

[00:33:02] Jackie Colburn: Okay. As somebody who’s never watched the Hunger Games and never will, based on what I’ve heard about it, it sounds incredibly violent and awful. Right. We’re fighting against each other

[00:33:11] Galen Low: kids too.

[00:33:12] Jackie Colburn: So, I mean, I guess my question is like, why would that be the analog, like why would that ever be the spirit of working in a team where we’re against one another? Hmm. In my view, it’s about being for something together and figuring out how as a collective you can most effectively and most harmoniously and most successfully move there.

And so it goes back to what I said at the beginning about that threat of steel. You need to have clarity and conversation to get to clarity with your team about how you’ll operate together in service of a certain goal or outcome. Um, and so I think that that, again, is gonna look different depending on the context of the project or the product or the org.

[00:34:00] Um, and it really comes down to defining your operating approach as a team and making sure it’s clear who does what. Um, one more thing I’ll say and then I’ll stop talking, is, uh, you know, I’ve, I’ve been shocked at how little infrastructure there is inside of most organizations. I mean, I’ve worked with Fortune 50 companies that have very little process clarity and op clarity.

Um. So I think, you know, it’s great if something exists and there’s an operating model that your team then can, you know, use as a starting point and try to work within. You still need to have a conversation about how for this team, you’re gonna fit into that way of operating. But most of the time, teams are gonna need to figure out what their operating model looks like.

So that’s like, you know, how are we gonna keep track of things? When are we meeting, what tools are [00:35:00] we using? Who’s going to, you know, update stories or status reports? Who’s gonna communicate with stakeholders? You know, it’s like doing that work and then defining that, documenting it, and continuing to hold one another accountable to that clarity, I think is the key.

And I’ll stop talking now.

[00:35:17] Galen Low: I love that you just overturned something in my head, right? This, there’s this sort of notion of, um, you know, all of these sort of survival analogs and metaphors like are kind of based on a different game, right? Like there’s zero sum game. Is there enough food for us both to eat?

And if there’s not, who gets to eat it? Whereas a lot of what we do isn’t that. And if we understand our value, and if we’re delivering value that has an impact, that allows that team to continue functioning, I think a lot of our brains go, oh, what if they like shrink headcount or shrink the sort of salary band so that you can only pay one person?

Um, which is a, I mean, I won’t go too deep, but like, that’s a business function of like, the impact is not being felt. So they’re having to like cut costs. But if there’s a team that is, as you say, you know. [00:36:00] Figuring themselves out because yeah, you’re not always getting this sort of like very clean org structure from on high to this is how you ought to work.

You’ve probably gotta figure it out. And if you can figure it out to like add value as a team, you know, for customers, B2B customers, B2C customers, keeping stakeholders happy, keeping things being delivered in the right time to stay competitive, like that’s that thread of steel that hopefully in a perfect world other than, you know, external factors helps a business be on a growth path, not in a, in a shrinking path.

Um, but I know it’s kind of like esoteric and we don’t always get to see it from that perspective in an, in an organization of like, yeah, I’m helping this company succeed and grow and like making sure that they can help me still pay my salary. Um, but functionally that is kind of how it works. Even if that’s a bit abstract.

Evie, I was wondering if I can get your take on it too.

[00:36:48] Evie Brockwell: Yeah. I think the point that you’ve just left it on about how can we add, it’s basically how can we add more value? And if you can work together to be saying, how do we do that? And what I will say. Um, applies to [00:37:00] every role. It’s not just product, product and project, but it really is about sitting down and having that conversation about, well, what do I want to focus on?

What do you want to focus on? Because as Philippe said, there’s elements of both roles that everyone can do. So if you can sit down and really, like Anna’s put it beautifully in the chat, it’s about being human. And the more you can sit down and have that human to human conversation and say like, this is everything we need to achieve, this is where we think we could work to add more value.

What are your strengths? Where do you want to focus? What are mine? That can look different in every single team? So it really, really, really is about having these honest and transparent conversations. I’m also gonna say it’s not always easy. I have also worked with people in this space where in these, this happy, beautiful world, it is like, right, how can we add value together?

And you do this and I do this and blah, blah, blah. But sometimes there is tension. Sometimes there are two people that do have conflict and sometimes. This is what always happens. There’s usually an ego or a power struggle where someone wants to feel like they have the more important role. Mm-hmm. And [00:38:00] sometimes we have to be the bigger person and put our ego aside and say like, okay, cool.

Like maybe you can do that thing. And sometimes we have to navigate tricky scenarios like that where it’s like, actually I think I’ve got a better skill and one better place to do that. And you do sometimes have to overcome those conflicts and challenges in these conversations. So also being prepared for that and knowing how to navigate those things.

But if you are sat here listening to this and you’re like, I think I could lead on making this happen and creating more clarity, as Jackie said, absolutely. Go ahead and do that as a starting point and you’ll figure the rest of it.

[00:38:33] Galen Low: I love that as just like, should be standard training now, right? How to have a conversation about who’s doing what.

Like it’s like, you know, university group project thing. Again, we, uh, but like, you know, there is, you’re right, like there’s like egos that collide. It’s, there’s, there’s very human things that maybe take it down a different path that it maybe doesn’t need to even go down that path. Um, but I, I, yeah, I, I’ve got respect for that to be like, let’s sit down and figure it out because, you [00:39:00] know, we’re professionals and we ultimately have some shared goals, at least some, um, and yeah, sometimes there’s just bandits and people who will just not, who will try and take advantage and that’s just a thing too.

[00:39:13] Evie Brockwell: Yeah, I think we’re all scarred from those university projects, but at least hopefully we can take those learnings into our adult life.

[00:39:20] Galen Low: Absolutely. Oh, the trauma. Um, I wondered if I can like, spend a few minutes on, um, the requisite AI future thing. Um, because I think we, we, we see our jobs, you know, a certain way, um, wearing multiple hats, you know, going into skills-based roles, but still maybe kind of being either a product manager type role or a project manager type role.

Um, how’s technology going to change what these roles look like in the next few years? We talked about the support, right? Evie? You mentioned about like having, you know, the support to be able to kind of, uh, wear multiple hats. Um, maybe like, could that be AI giving them some support? Uh, [00:40:00] also, you know, some of this admin and things that we’re doing today, you know, is some of it’s starting to peel away.

And once you peel it all away, what, what’s, what’s left? And what will we be doing in 3, 5, 8 years? I’m gonna leave that as a free for all. Just grab the mic.

[00:40:16] Phil Araujo: Still the same, still the same thing. Sorry. It’s, it’s, uh, the bi discussion is, uh, it’s quite an interesting one because people believe that, you know, our role is mainly talking to people.

[00:40:28] Galen Low: Hmm.

[00:40:31] Phil Araujo: That That’s it. You know, I don’t think this is gonna change anything is, I know it sounds weird, but it’s, it’s like get out of a building. You know, the famous get out of a building is still true. Get out of your office, get out of a building, jump on a Zoom call. And you know, AI can be really good to rewrite an email.

Like if you don’t know the tone and you’re like, okay, I’m unsure and this could help you. Like really, instead of spending one hour rereading your email, did I say the right thing? Am I not too aggressive? Am I assertive enough? But [00:41:00] not too much, you know, that it open the discussion. AI is fantastic for that.

[00:41:03] Galen Low: Mm-hmm.

[00:41:04] Phil Araujo: But at the end of the day, the strategy is still for you and the rest is you’re still gonna have to talk to people. Still gonna be human to human interaction is still gonna be 70% of our job. And I don’t think it’s gonna change for that. So if you don’t like to talk to human though, that’s a problem.

Maybe not the job

[00:41:27] Jesse Fewell: ing I’ll, I’ll follow up on that and then let, uh, Jackie and Eva, uh, and, uh, Evie, close this out. I, I see AI right now a emerging as the next fundamental job skill. Remem i i, some of you on this, on this webinar may not be, uh, old enough to remember that there was a world before email. Um, and I remember when this hot new thing called email was coming out and people were like saying, get, you try.

Then it was the, the web and you have to use the web now and in order to do your job and you have web-based, then it was video meetings [00:42:00] and everybody now has to learn how to use video. Now it’s ai and whether we’re talking about, um, uh, chat GPTs and lms, or we’re talking about the new AI feature in Photoshop, this is now a fundamental job skill.

And so. If, if all you have been doing is what now a new tool feature can do, what are, what are you doing? Like Philippe makes the point. We’re in the business of, of, of, of herding cats. And uh, although my Roomba vacuum is pretty good at the cats, um, these are bigger, more complicated cats that need a bigger, more complicated brain.

So, uh, this is the new fundamental job skill and, and, and so all of us have to pivot.

[00:42:48] Galen Low: Love that. Also, please, both the video of your room about hurting your cats. Uh,

[00:42:55] Evie Brockwell: yeah, I’m like, the last thing that I would add in this space is I think there’s so many people, and this is what [00:43:00] everyone’s been saying in the chat as well, is.

There’s too many things to do and this is where AI can be so impactful. And this is where I’ve seen so many people actually free up that time to go out and have the conversations whilst looking at burn rates and looking at everything else. So the more that you can go, okay, what menial tasks am I doing that don’t need to be done by me?

But they can add they, they just have to get done. Mm-hmm. And they can focus on all the other stuff that I do want to do that’s gonna add more impact. It’s gonna add more value. Use AI for everything else and focus on like where your strengths are and where your magic ad is. And the more that you do that, then actually the easier everything will become.

[00:43:36] Galen Low: Love that.

[00:43:38] Jackie Colburn: I agree.

[00:43:43] Galen Low: Brilliant. Brilliant, brilliant. Uh, I see so much going on in the chat. I guarantee I have not been following closely enough, but I see at least, uh, some of the, the panelists are, thank you again, owe you one. Um, we’ve got like, we’re running pretty good on time. We’ve got like [00:44:00] 14 minutes. Um, and I was thinking that.

Maybe we can get to q and a next. But first, uh, I do have a few quick notes. Um, first of all, if you want to hear more from our panelists today, I’d encourage you to go find them on LinkedIn. Just go creep them. Stalk them. Um, they’re easy to find. Uh, they’re great. If you wanna stay up to date on all the things that we’re talking about, um, we’ll share those links in the chat as well, I think.

Um, but also we’re gonna send an email afterwards. Look at that. Michael’s like, so on top of it. Uh, we’re all gonna share that out in the email right after. Um, also we have more events like these coming up in May. Uh, we’ll be hosting a debate on time tracking on the 14th, uh, to settle a score on whether it’s actually making a positive impact on project success or just eroding trust with our teams.

Um, and we’ll follow that conversation up with a couple of speakers, um, who wrote the book on change management. So we’re gonna be talking about how to run high profile, high stakes change management as a project, and to make it a little bit more successful. Keep an eye out if you’re subscribed to the digital project manager.

Email, email newsletter, Jesse, I’m like, I’m showing my age, man. [00:45:00] Uh, open up, uh, your email clients and there should be a newsletter inside. Um, if you subscribe to our newsletter, you’ll get all those details there. Um, and thank you for being a part of this and before anyone takes off today, ’cause I know it’s gonna start happening if it hasn’t already.

Um, I want you to know that I love, uh, feedback. We love to be able to improve the way we do things. Um, give it to me absolutely raw and unfiltered. I have thick enough skin. We have thick enough skin here. If there’s something that you loved, hated, would change, um, please fill out the survey that Michael’s put in there.

He says he loves feedback too. I believe him. We look at it, we analyze it, it, this is our product. Um, this is how we sort of take our user feedback. Um, so bring it on. Uh, so link in the chat. Um, I appreciate it. It’s just a, it’s very quick. Um, and, uh, I would love to hear from you all. Let’s get to your questions.

There’s like a lot of them. I, there’s like, in 12 minutes I’m gonna try and cover as many as we can. Um, and, uh, I’ll just kind of go in the order that Michael’s arranged them for me. [00:46:00] Um, so, uh, first question, uh, from Lena. Um, I’m just wondering about the growth piece of it all. So, wearing many hats has absolutely made Elna a strong pm Uh, but when interviewing, oftentimes companies are looking for people who most deeply specialize in what they’re looking for.

Has anyone found successful ways to tell the story of a dynamic skill but also deep specialization?

[00:46:31] Jesse Fewell: I, I’ll, uh, jump into this. One of the things that I I, I’ve noticed in working with, um, uh, hiring managers, uh, lately, is that there tends to be. A, uh, I want everything shopping list when it comes to a particular job role. And, and, um, I think it was, uh, was, uh, Evie or Jackie was talking about, uh, telling the [00:47:00] story.

Uh, what is your story? Um, thank you, Jackie. Uh, and, and if that means that, for example, if you’re, if you’re submitting your resume either to be, um, selected for a promotion, um, or for a new job opportunity or a contract role, then it’s gonna be annoying. But you’re gonna have to customize your resume, your cover sheet, your CV in order to tell the story specific that they want to hear.

The good news is we have these cool new AI bots that can help you do that, uh, in, in a fraction of the time that it took before. Uh, this is something that I’ve had to do in my career is to tell the story. And so, uh, sometimes I was talking to, um, I was talking to, uh, a colleague over at Netflix and he said, uh, the Netflix culture is very different than the Google culture when it comes to skills that are most valued at Google.

The horizontal skillset of product management or pro program management is more [00:48:00] highly valued. But at Netflix, the, the industry skillset around, um, film production or data center management, that’s what’s more valued. And then you just grow into the skillset that you’re needed. Two completely different cultures, both in the same tech kind of space.

So, uh, tell the story, uh, that your audience wants to hear and, and it’s gonna be case by case.

[00:48:27] Galen Low: I love that sort of, that it’s not just about you actually, it’s, it’s also you’ve gotta do your research a bit as well. Exactly. Other, and anyone? I don’t want to add any other tips just on storytelling. ’cause I think that is an important bit in like a skill, skill-based job economy.

[00:48:49] Jesse Fewell: Okay.

[00:48:50] Jackie Colburn: Go for it. Go ahead. Yeah, go. Okay, I’ll go. So I think, um, you know, as Phil shared earlier, getting outta the [00:49:00] building, talking to people that’s core to this work. And one of the things that is important is to think about your audience, right? Anytime you’re trying to communicate the importance of something or motivate somebody to get excited about your.

Your mission as a product leader or your desire to work for a company like you wanna think about who you’re sending that message to and tell a story that you think is gonna resonate with their needs. So you sort of need to put your mind as much as you can into, into theirs. Um, think about what you think they’re looking for, and then tailor your story in a way that’s gonna resonate with ’em.

So I know Jesse just talked about how it, it does involve customization, it involves work. It’s not gonna be a copy and paste exercise. So for every role you’re going after, you may need to tweak your story slightly so that you’re resonating with the person that you are, you’re telling it to. [00:50:00]

[00:50:02] Galen Low: Boom. Love

[00:50:02] Phil Araujo: that.

Yeah. I’m just gonna add, just gonna add a curve ball. I said that to, um, one person I mentored lately is that when you go to, um, when you go to interviews or any type of negotiation, you have to see that like dating. It’s exactly the same stuff. Okay. So what I mean by that is the fact that, you know, you want to, you want to find three things.

Like basically, is this person a kid or not? You know, ’cause you don’t want to, you don’t want to date a kid, obviously. Second thing is that does, can I trust this person? Uh, the second thing that you want to know, you know, and third thing, am I gonna have fun with this person? And basically you are free. You should, for me, I try to have free stories that comes around these three things because this is what people want to know,

[00:50:52] Galen Low: Hmm.

[00:50:52] Phil Araujo: Is that come here to solve a problem, which is a problem that we need someone to be, to be in that position. The fun part is also [00:51:00] important because it’s also like, am I, am I gonna hate the person? Or I can go to the pub. I mean, I’m in England, so am I gonna be capable to go to the pub and have a beer with that person?

[00:51:10] Galen Low: Mm-hmm.

[00:51:10] Phil Araujo: And this is also what people are looking for because we know the job is tough. We know that everybody that works in this job, we know it’s tough. So we know that we can have a laugh. We know also that, you know, I can trust someone. We know that they’re gonna have initiative to do something on their own.

They’re not gonna bring me more problem than I already have. So this is why I always go back to approach it like dating. Mm-hmm. Bring a value to the table. You just have to show it.

[00:51:34] Galen Low: That’s a great foundation for a story. DI really like that. Um, all right. Lemme see what I can do with the last six minutes.

Um, I’ve got a question here from Diana. She says, I’m a, I’m a digital project manager. Um, but I wanted to know if product managers have more to do as a whole versus a project manager, or does it depend from org to, or, and I can relate to this because, you know, we we’re having this conversation in the project management world right now with ai, which is like, cool, AI’s [00:52:00] gonna take some of this stuff.

And then you have a choice, you can do more projects. ’cause that typically is like in, in my agency background. That’s kind of the thing. It’s like we hire a project manager to run multiple projects. If they’ve got less to do, they can do more projects. Um, but like generally, we couldn’t fill a 40 hour week with just project management on one project, unless it was a big enterprise complex project and, and, and, um, versus like, yeah, product manager, um, like kind of being able to fill a 40 hour week in terms of the role description.

Um, yeah, like, is that, is that, is that a, is that a. Is that what you all have experienced as well in terms of like full plate versus being spread around? Has anyone have been a product manager who was like product manager for like eight products?

[00:52:43] Evie Brockwell: I mean, I did product manage four teams and three cross-functional products at one point.

And this is like Philip said, like we’ve got, you’re doing project and product.

[00:52:56] Jesse Fewell: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[00:52:56] Evie Brockwell: And it, this is why I speak about burnout all the time now. ’cause that’s [00:53:00] just practically impossible. So I think no matter where you are, it really depends on the org and how much they’ll keep pushing on your plate.

And it also depends on you and how much you’re willing to say, actually this is where my capacity is, this is where my limits are. Mm. And not always just pay taking everything that comes your way. So I think naturally the product role can go in so many different directions that there is so much more you can do all of the time.

Like the job is never done. Um. Probably there’s more in the product world, but at the same time, it really is just, well, is the org gonna keep pushing or not?

[00:53:32] Galen Low: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

I love that. Uh, anyone else wanna take a stab?

[00:53:44] Jesse Fewell: I’ll just, uh, echo, uh, E’s point. It really is org to org because when you look at the, the field of product management, um, if you, the pragmatic Institute has the most popular framework for product management across industry. Um, [00:54:00] yes, there are other, um, like the Silicon Valley product group has their model for digital product management.

But if you look at the pragmatic Institute’s framework, there’s, there’s like four dozen competencies that a product manager is supposed to take a look at. Um, then if you go take a look at project management, the most recent draft of the upcoming Global Standard has upwards of 40 different processes that we’re supposed to be supervising, facilitating at the same time.

There’s a lot in either role, and so, um, to, uh, Galen’s point, uh, juggle, um, what you have to the way EV does, but maybe delegate some of that with ai. Set your boundaries, know what your boundaries are. The 40 hour work minimum, um, is maybe not for everybody. Um, uh, but it, it really is org.org. Uh, I hope that everybody leaving the webinar today understands that there, there’s really a lot of nuance here and we’re really just encouraging you to have [00:55:00] impact in your organization in a way that doesn’t, uh, create burnout.

Uh, and, uh, and, and so be the, be the most you can be without being more than you can.

[00:55:13] Galen Low: I love that. Love that. Uh, I wanted to end with just one kind of quick ar because I know we talked a bit about it in the chat, but I think I missed it also, I want this for the tape. Um, Julie’s question is from a, from a team, uh, lead standpoint, how do we ensure that team members are being accurately, I’m gonna add fairly compensated when they continue to expand their, you know, role through curiosity and add hats or skills to their capabilities and responsibilities.

In other words, yeah, like how, how, how are we making sure we’re being fair? And also if you’re in that role, you know, pay me, how can we make sure that that’s a fair value exchange Or is it that you just kinda like you, like this is just a culture of you gotta eat it, you gotta take on more and tell, you can say pay me more.

I don’t know. Interested in thoughts?[00:56:00]

[00:56:05] Evie Brockwell: I, I was gonna let Jesse go first ’cause he’s put some stuff in the chat. So anyone else take over.

[00:56:14] Phil Araujo: I can go, I can have a, I can have a go at that. Um, so let’s go from a fairly first. I think one of the issue, when you start to expand your role that is not in your, um, in your first responsibilities or you start to go outside, um, let’s imagine that even as a product manager, you start to do marketing that you can’t be fairly compensated because suddenly you become a unicorn inside the organization and you can’t, you can’t really treat a unicorn, first of all, separately from the rest of the organization.

And at the same time, it’s really hard to compare. So that’s the first thing. So thinking that you will be fairly compensated or even that you will get compensated for that, it truly depend on the organization. And I would say that most of the organization will not do it. They will keep you in the bracket that you [00:57:00] are in because it’s decided by hr and they will unfortunately leave you with that.

So I think it’s more. From a personal perspective, uh, Yvette animates you, Yvette motivates you to wake up in the morning. Yvette, you’re like, you know, coming on the Sunday night and not dreading the, the Monday, and you have to do that to, to make it better at your work or because you’re just interested by that.

Like, do it, but don’t do it because you, you want to be compensated for it. I think it’s a, it’s a bad perspective because it’s expectation that you’re gonna be, um, disappointed by, that’s pretty sure. In almost all the organization, they don’t, they don’t recognize that even if you do way more.

[00:57:42] Galen Low: Unicorn. It’s a bit,

[00:57:42] Phil Araujo: it’s a bit sinister as the last, uh, thing, but uh, yes, it’s what I’ll say unfortunately.

But maybe someone has another perspective than me on the panel. Well,

[00:57:54] Galen Low: I mean, uh, you know, Catherine who had to leave the call, she had a very good suggestion. She’s like, maybe we should just have a panel on that topic [00:58:00] alone. And I actually think that’s not a bad idea because I think that’s happening everywhere.

And I think it’s a hard conversation to navigate. Um, and it ties into what Evie was saying about, you know, like. Kind of these negotiations between team members of how we all work together. And it’s this sort of very fluid value exchange right now that I think we can all build skills around. But I also know that I’ve taken everybody over a minute, over time,

[00:58:22] Phil Araujo: but it’s, it’s also like, just to just add a point, but it’s also really important to remember that our role is as much dual our, our role than selling ourselves.

Mm. And I think most of the people forget that they have to sell themselves inside the organization, and they have to make it recognize also. So it’s not just, you know, like the, the famous, uh, 50% on the product, 50% on traction when you work in product. So it’s 50% sales, 50% product, you are the product. So it’s 50%, two 50% selling you.

It’s exactly the same thing.

[00:58:50] Jesse Fewell: Galen, he’s dropping golden nuggets. We haven’t, we need to do another webinar. We’re gonna, yeah. I’m gonna keep rolling the table. This too. Awesome.

[00:58:56] Galen Low: Yeah, I, I’ve, I’ve, I’ve, I’ve bugged Phil department too, so I can just get all [00:59:00] the, the, the gold insights. Uh, awesome. Uh, just wanted to say, uh, thank you so much for everyone who joined the call.

I know some people had to leave. Um, but, uh, again, uh, if you have any feedback for us, please, uh, fill out that survey that Michael just put in there. Um, and of course, a big thank you to our panelists. Thank you for volunteering your time today. Uh, I had a lot of fun. Um, and I really just, uh, appreciate you guys sharing your expertise with us.

So thank you again, everybody. Have a great day. Thank you. Um, panelists, I’m gonna keep you for a little bit if you can. I know some of you need to drop, um, and for everyone else, yeah, enjoy the rest of your week. Thank you for being a part of this, and, um, hope to see you at the next one.

[00:59:39] Jackie Colburn: Bye everyone.